OK, there’s been way more heat than light around this subject. Here is the resolution and supporting info (pdf).
Those in support: are filled with righteous indignation that the Council would take action against the new shop. The truth is that all we have done is asked for a review opinion from a third-party to confirm what our attorney has said. Existing businesses are not subject to the vast bulk of the program the Council is pursuing. As I understand it, if the Council implemented licensing provisions for the operators of such business, the existing operators would have to obtain a license. The license requirements, as PWC found out in federal court, are not allowed to be onerous and must be applicable to that which you are regulating.
For those against: We have kicked off a program to develop the necessary background and research to enable us to regulate future sexually oriented businesses (SOB). It will take some time to do the proper research. Can we just copy someone else’s? Yes, although the Federal Courts have not generally supported ordinances that are not tailored to your particular situation. I don’t want to go to Federal Court again but if we do I want to know that we’ve proceeded by the numbers. We went to federal court last time and our work was not done by the numbers. It was an expensive, messy process. We didn’t even really litigate all that much and our costs were around $400,000 (not counting settlement money paid by insurance company). I’m not spending City money like that if I can help it. Nothing is a guarantee but we must be prudent. We have already initiated this process.
This process will explore the outright ban of some kinds of SOB’s (those without First Amendment protection) and the regulation of others (those with). Is it cheap? no. You can’t have it both ways though – in situations that have constitutional implications we need to proceed by the numbers. To do otherwise would be irresponsible.
AFTER that process is complete the Land Use Committee (LUC) will look at the regulation of other kinds of business that have deliterious impacts on surrounding. This list will look a lot like the lists that other cities use: payday lenders, etc, etc, etc. This will be looked at City-wide. This work will begin when the first project is complete.
This has served as a wake-up call and the Council needs to take the necessary steps to regulate this so as to prevent future problems.
September 30, 2010 at 6:01 am
Andy, I for one thank you for posting the documents…particularly the Action Plan. I also support the Council in making the effort to bring our City Ordinances up to speed (as you know, this is a point I and my son both make about how they need to be scrubbed, especially for inconsistencies, and updated where needed).
Although I am not fond of the cost, I am realistic enough to know it is something that has to be done ESPECIALLY by an outside outfit to ensure, for lack of a better term, “honest broker”. As someone who has written Dept. of Defense and Army Directives, Policies, Regulations, etc. in a past life, I know all too well the time and the “cost savings” if someone says it could be done in house. Smart Management Controls (Internal Controls) give credence to the outside firm. Not knowing the name of the firm, in one way my view hopes it is someone from across the ones associated in VML who have encountered the issue, and presently have the businesses in their jurisdictions, and have solid research and example ordinance to work from.
On a humorous note – I laughed when I read “Combat Zone” in the Plan. My Mother is from Boston, and I have a cousin who was on BPD and assigned to patrol it…and one time had a great tour of it with him when we were both young adults. Just had to laugh how Boston’s moniker has become standard phrasing. Thanks for my cruise down memory lane prompted by your use of it!
September 30, 2010 at 7:31 am
Ray:
We have at least three bids – the only firm I can recall (and I can’t even remember their name) are the ones who wrote the manual on regulating SOB’s for the American Planning Association.
September 30, 2010 at 9:08 am
Andy, it looks like you”re moving the right way, and the good explanation is appreciated.
September 30, 2010 at 11:19 am
Press On, good men and women of the council!
October 1, 2010 at 7:41 am
I’m not trying to hi-jack the thread, so maybe Andy will start a new one…. High school Graduation rates came out this week, and we can be proud of the school board and the millions of wasted dollars because OHS has a rate 7 points lower than the State average, and one of the lowest in the area.
There is nothing like saying we have a crappy school system then to point out the graduation rate. Of course the students we spend the most on, illegals and ESL students have an even lower rate.
However, because the school board is just interested in spending money and keeping the union happy, us tax payers will just keep getting the shift.
October 1, 2010 at 10:39 pm
Just an observation: it is a shame a group choses to exercise their free right to protest on the day of the Fall Festival. Also a shame that in the same e-mail by our Delegate encouraging come to the Festival, plugs this peaceful demonstration.
Just what the heck do this collective group of people want the Council to do? Wait, I know…one more collective demand.
Post a Police Officer outside KK’s once it opens to check IDs. Seems that is the only thing left….
October 1, 2010 at 11:45 pm
@R B
Collective group? Oh, you mean voters, taxpayers, parents, shopkeepers, citizens.
What a shame the Fall Festival is ruined by such types.
October 2, 2010 at 6:12 am
I hope the 35,000+ people expected at the Fall Jubilee enjoy the day. Anything that detracts from that is noisy gongs and clanging cymbals.
October 2, 2010 at 10:32 am
What’s a festival without noisy gongs and clanging cymbals?
October 3, 2010 at 8:11 am
Mr. Beverage, why was my plug for a good citizens protest on an issue where I fully agree with her a “shame”?
Even over half of our City Council attended the protest. They didnt think it was a shame. Please fille me in, why was my e-mail a shame?
I just went back and raed it and it seems very positive for our City all the way around.
October 3, 2010 at 8:21 am
Oh, forgot to mention. All of those council members who did show up also spoke to the crowd and did a great job..
spell check “read ” not “raed” in last post. oops
October 3, 2010 at 10:51 am
I considered it a shame (not in the sense of shameful)…no, more kind of sad, that on a day when showcasing/enjoying the best of Manassas, that day is chosen to stage a protest….and my gut reaction being the lead news stories would not be the Festival, but the protest. And picking the local paper off the drive way this morning, it is nice to know my gut was right. And reading Mr. Aveni’s quote made me shake my head.
Mr. Miller, as to your e-mail, you lead in encouraging celebrating the best, and then next – in my individual view – in encouraging readers to join in the protest. That is my interpretation of your wording, and my view is there is far too much individual morality going on in the last month without considering just the limits of what the Council can do.
All at play in the issue of KK’s is morality – and there are two levels to that: Government Morality and Individual Morality.
The Council has done all they can in their boundries of Government Morality within the limits of the Internal Sovereignty granted by Charter, and the Commonwealth retains plenary authority (as such they created, so they too can abolish). As such, Virginia Code sets the boundries/limits as to what is pornography and what is obscenity. That dictates what may be considered “community standards” throughout the Commonwealth. And those standards vary place to place across the Nation…example there is Nevada allows Reno & Las Vegas to do far much more than the majority of other States. I personally would not want this City to be at those extremes and that is my individual morality view.
It has been delinated, since that Council Special Session last month, as to what authority the City has in this matter. Our Vice Mayor, much to his credit, has shared on this blog everything he legally can. It is now time for all Citizens and Officials to allow our Local Government to proceed. Some may not like it, some have verbally or here on this blog expressed their support, but the City does not have plenipoteniary authority (meaning full powers or absolute control) to order the shut down of a business that, under both Virginia and Local law/ordinances, was allowed to open at its location.
I attended that Special Session as I wanted to know if the points I raised in my e-mail response to you, Mr. Miller, would be discussed by our City Attorney. You may have found my response disappointing; however, I was not disappointed in the Council’s response. The Mayor lead in with his statement covering how the Council had only heard about it after all legal permits were issues (well, minus the sign, but that was the one flaw in City procedure of not notifying the owners of the Historic District rules). Within the limits of the Privacy Act, all information that could be shared was shared.
But Individual Morality has been the rule of the day from the beginnng. This store was labeled a “porn shop” without even knowing what will be stocked on the shelves by the owners to comply with City Ordinances. “Porn” is an individual reactive word, as the term pornographic – as defined by both society and by law – shifts along a continuum from what is erotic to what is obscene. That which is obscene and not socially acceptable because of the extreme vulgarity, is clearly defined in our City and Commonwealth, and I support the banning of such items.
The US Army, in its great wisdom, years ago sent me trained me on Civil Disturbances. Not only how to control an event, but to cause an event by using reactive words or actions. Reactive wording has lead to a vocal majority expressing a demand for action, and removal of all “porn shops” from Manassas, and to a vocal minority expressing support for a legal operating business. Sadly, it is also crossing the line to where individuals expressing their support are maligned. One person in particular – Cindy Brookshire – has had statements made about her. A long time friend, fellow active volunteer in the CIty (and as Andy Harrover called us “the two most active Baby Boomers in the CIty), has had things said about her for which I found offensive and obscene. Cindy though, being a mature adult, can laugh at it all based on her indivudal morality views about the situation and personal strengths. She has expressed both publicaly and in writing what I figure the silent majority in this City is thinking, minus views I have heard that all of this ruckus has been caused by “just another City Hall screw up”.
Individual Morality has also come into play with the Council passing that resolution on abortion clinics. The foundation of the action leading to the resolution is the morality point as Government Morality is already defined by Federal & Commonwealth Law. Councilman Wolfe, to his credit, disagreed with the resolution as it was an item beyond Local Government. I do applaud the idea of having one consolidating reference issued. Type “abortion” in the Virgina Code search, and about a dozen or so lines show up, leading to more and more lines making a long report.
Many statements were made on the sanctity of life, and the majority that spoke oppose abortion, and would rather the legally operating clinics not exist. But even under Roman Catholic Catechism, the stand is against “procurred abortion” as even Rome has three supported instances when abortion is sanctioned.
Bottom Line is there needs to be an understanding our Council has done all they could, so now ALL must wait for the process. We should ALL be supporting the legal review, and not continuing to ask for what can not be delivered. There are far greater things I would like to hear people being vocal on such as suporting the M&T Tax, not repealing it….as expressed several times by the Mayor.
October 3, 2010 at 11:03 am
Jackson,
Thank you for your leadership on this issue. What is a shame is that for some of our fellow residents concern over freedom of speech for two Centreville residents appears to take priority over freedom of speech for their fellow Manassas residents
October 3, 2010 at 11:54 am
Mr. Beverage, if you had attended the event you would have found that it was very positive. As I said before it was attended by a majority of the council, all of whom spoke to the group. All of them were very well received with their words of encouragement for those attending.
There was nothing ‘sad’ about it. After Ms. Basinger’s rally, most of those who attended went on and enjoyed a really nice fall festival.
As for negative or nasty comments made about Cindy, I have no control over that at all. I have not seen nor heard such comments. If I did, I would immediately come to her defense. I may not always agree with her on issues, but I do count her as a friend and respect the fact that we disagree on things.
October 3, 2010 at 11:55 am
Doug, thanks for your support.
I appreciate it.
October 3, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Jackson, you and I have had this conversation before about other people being maligned during your last election. I defended you last time it happened and accepted what you said and how you had no control over it.
I am afraid I don’t buy that a second time. Even if you cannot go to the source and disavow the character assassination on Cindy, you can at least disavow it here on Andy’s blog.
I will check back. I feel certain you and I will agree that there are just some things that shouldn’t be said about people, especially those who have done so much for the city.
October 3, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Mr. Beverage, you sir should run for Council. I would vote for you in a heart beat. In fact, please run as our representative in Richmond as our Delegate. Again, we will soon have a legally operating business in Manassas and a very small minority wants to shut them down after the fact. Mr. Brown, freedom of speech is not limited to Manassas City residents. These Centreville ladies are legal business owners in the City, as are many other non residents and they have a right to be represented as well. After reading the local papers comments section, it appears to me a large majority of people in the area are in support of the business and may even lend support. I for one will no longer shop at any store in old town that is against this business simply because of their morality opinions. Just as it is their right to voice their opinions, it is mine to not support them. I have shopped at The Things I Love on many occassions for my wife, never again. I will also have to rethink my support for our current Delegate.
October 3, 2010 at 2:09 pm
Mr. Beverage,
I agree with your post. You make a clear distinction between personal and civil morality..
People need to accept responsibility for their own morality and leave collective group-attack out of the equation.
Clearly labeling a business a ‘porn shop’ defines the tone of the rest of the conversation and very much alters the course of the rest of the debate.
October 3, 2010 at 3:15 pm
Moon-howler, read my last post at 11:54. I did ‘disavow’ it.
October 3, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Jackson:
I thought your email slammed the Council by insinuating that they were not taking the issue seriously.
Linda
October 3, 2010 at 4:03 pm
I’m not near a computer and nobody has gone too far yet but please maintain a civil tone. I know it’s a tangled subject…
I’ll post later about my perceived intent in being there.
October 3, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Jackson, had I thought you had seen the comments, I would not have commented to you as I did.
I don’t consider an ‘ if I knew what you were talking about’ remark to be disavowing anything.
You either approve of what was said or you disavow it. On something like this, there is no equivocation.
Since clearly you did not know, and now you do, I look forward to you coming to her defense.
October 3, 2010 at 6:10 pm
There are now more folks for this establishment because of all the hype. At this point I’m sick and tired of the BS that is going on…I TRULY hope we can find a replacement for Mr. Miller…EVEN if I have to vote for a DEMOCRAT.
Mr. Miller you have taken what would have been a business that would probably be out of business in a matter of weeks into one that will probably be around for longer than expected.
Manassas will have no one to thank but YOU!
You and Bob Marshall voted to take away the M&T TAX away from localities, (HB613) If this vote would have passed (thank goodness it did not!) the City would have to make up that revenue some place…which I’m sure would be MY PROPERTY TAX.
The President of my company is a wise man. He says: “If you come to me with a problem…you better come with a solution.”
What is your solution Mr. Miller? Because the only thing I’ve heard come out of you is the problem!
I’ve heard no solution to replacing what YOU feel is a problem!!!!!!
October 3, 2010 at 7:13 pm
Ms. Stevens, well said. My whole problem with the way this has been handled is not that the City wants to regulate these type of businesses, but rather that they have set their sites on this particular business when they did everything legally. I am also tired of hearing parents using their children as an excuse to bash this business. Take repsonsibility for your children and they will do fine. Mr. Miller has lost my vote for this issue and the HB613 vote. He has not taken the best interets of the residents in mind but rather big business. I wonder how much money business such as M have donated to him?
October 3, 2010 at 8:13 pm
Mr. Miller, I am glad to know that you would disavow the bullying and cruel tactics that have been expressed towards Cindy. I expect to be attacked, but Cindy did NOT deserve to be treated so unkindly.
We share the same judeo christian belief system and I am sure, from what I have read about you, you would find such treatment unacceptable. We can all disagree, vigorously, but Cindy was attacked in a very personal way. The bounds of decency were clearly crossed.
I know you would never behave in such a way, that is why you leadership in speaking out against such behavior is so critical.
October 3, 2010 at 9:22 pm
@ManassasCityResident
Please tell me where I said the two lovely ladies from Centreville didn’t have freedom of speech? Where?
Unfortunately, the people who embrace the entreprenuers from Centreville, find their fellow citizens exercising their free speech rights more offensive than what the two” ladies” have done to the already strained public discourse in Manassas.
You’re tired of hearing parents using their children as an excuse to bash this business?
So are you suggesting that it is the parents which are the real threat to their children’s upbringing?
Because, it sure sounds like you are charging the parents with using their kids as nothing more than clubs, objects to beat up on a couple of poor defenseless women shopkeepers, who happen to be selling porn, Ray.
October 4, 2010 at 6:51 am
Mr. Brown, you insinuated that Manassas City residents freedom of speech should take precedence over the business owners within the City. If that wasn’t your intent, I apologize. And yes, I am accussing parents of using their children as objects for an issue they find offensive. If they are against the store, fine, but leave the kids at home, they have no desire to be at these protests. I don’t think these women are defenseless, and it is going to be nice to see them walk all over the fanatical rightwingers in the City. Looks like I will be voting for a democrat or two in the next local and state elections. Also, not sure who Ray is.
October 4, 2010 at 7:46 am
@MCR
Thank you for the endorsement :-), but no, I speak with too much candor gained from too many years in the miltary to be able to flip into politik speak. I can best serve my & our City by being an active volunteer in the ways I do.
Another aspect of all of this:
My son, completing the requirements in a Minor degree from GMU Institute for Conflict Analysis & Resolution, has been using this issue of KK’s for his last research paper. He shared the first section of it with the City Council, and received praising comments back from Mr. Way. Part Two is under development, and if I understood him right, it is looking at the issue in terms of diversity.
He may correct me on that since he is also following this blog. We discussed the issue of the “18 and Over” on the door of KK’s and the seperate section in the store, relating it to “What would happen if I opened a GameStop in Old Town?”
Several of the video games such as Grand Theft Auto, Vice City and soon to be release Duke Nukem 3 are rated a “Mature” following the Entertainment Software Rating Board’s policies. The gaming industry did voluntarily adopted them and they range from “Everyone” to “Adult” ratings. And if you do not know those games, prostitutuion, sex shops, and carnage abound in them….all though not sure about DN3 since it has not been released yet.
So, I put sections in my store saying “Mature” (17 and Older Only) and “Adult” (18 and Older Only). Also, I put a sign on my front door (after approval by the City ARB of course). Possibly a public outcry for my doing so?
For the record, we have a GameStop up on Signal Hill. I have been in that store, and although not sectioned, the clerks are VERY good at verifying ages when needed as a customer plops a game down for buying. The store, naturally, has no say if an adult buys a “Mature” game and hands it to their teenager to play.
October 4, 2010 at 8:00 am
Hmmm, all I hear is crickets Mr. Miller. Where is your leadership?
October 4, 2010 at 9:57 am
ManassasCityResident said:
“Mr. Brown, you insinuated that Manassas City residents freedom of speech should take precedence over the business owners within the City”
No I didn’t, I explicitly referred to something that would be quite contrary to that assertion. So yes, you did misunderstand my intent and apology accepted.
Thank you for confirming my impression that you consider parents bringing their children to such events a form of child abuse, an objectification of their children as placards so they can indulge their own selfish desires as parents to teach their children the difference between right and wrong in a public forum. Similiar to parents who force their children to go church on Sundays, can we as a community do anything to stop such parents?
Perhaps you should lead a grassroots movement to protect the children of Manassas from such outrageous child abuse?
I’m sure there will be at least one business in Old Town who would be happy to post your notices in their front window. Right next to their two on one sale.
October 4, 2010 at 10:14 am
Mr. Brown, you do understand that some of us find it rather disingenuous to bring your children to protest something you want to protect them from?
If the parental desire is truly to keep your children from seeing such things, then why involve them in the first place?
No one says the parents cannot do this. Some people just question the wisdom, and yes, the sincerity of the protest if children are brought in to the mix.
2 different points of view is all….
October 4, 2010 at 10:47 am
I find it funny…that those involved in the protest ACTUALLY wanted it to be held IN FRONT of KK’s DURING the October Fest. However, THANK GOODNESS, someone at the police department would not give them a permit for that location. SO IF they tell you “oh it was at city hall not at the fall festival”…that’s because the police diverted their EVIL PLAN.
THAT would have made for a WONDERFUL ENJOYABLE protest RIGHT SMACK DAB in the middle of the Fall Festival. So don’t let them mislead ANYONE…THEY don’t care about FAMILY ATMOSPHERE or HOW OLD TOWN is perceived…they ONLY HAVE ONE AGENDA…TRYING TO BE MORALITY POLICE TO EVERYONE IN THE CITY OF MANASSAS at ANY cost!
“If you’ll lie, you’ll steal”…that’s what MY granddaddy always said!
October 4, 2010 at 11:55 am
Mr. Brown, I misundertood your comment and I apologized. But I am not sure how you could have misunderstood mine. Nowhere did I ever say or insuate bringing a child to a protest was child abuse. I only said they were using their children as objects in an issue they have a problem with. Again, nowhere does it insuate child abuse. I think bringing your child to this protest is as bad as bringing your child to protest at an abortion clinic. Those children have no clue why they are there and have no desire to be there. IMHO, people infuse children in the conversation when they are losing the battle. And from all the posts in the local newspaper and on this blog, that is what is happening.
October 4, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Moon-howler howled:
” If the parental desire is truly to keep your children from seeing such things, then why involve them in the first place?”
Seeing such things? What things? The front of a porn store in old town? It’s a little late to claim the parents are worried about their children seeing that, after all, the city has already insured that the children of Manassas get that treat.
What you don’t get, and others who find such parents lacking in judgemnent, is that those parents are tired of their children being bombarded with sexually suggestive messages and images. What don’t you understand about : “BACK OFF!”? They are shaming those who howl live and let live, anything goes, by showing you the victims and future victims of what you are willing to promote and defend.
Your indifference to, ridicule of their concerns, and vicious attacks on them tells me that some of you are nothing more than a bunch of animals. 🙂
October 4, 2010 at 1:11 pm
@Doug Brown
And you sir, are out of control.
Obviously your own point of view is the only one you are willing to even hear.
I have not been discourteous to you. Why do you feel the need to be rude to me?
October 4, 2010 at 1:13 pm
C’mon, Doug, you disagree with others and even ridicule them too — and frankly you are sometimes quite right — but you don’t need to resort to calling others “nothing more than a bunch of animals.” I know you can be well-spoken.
For others on all sides of this debate in addition to Doug, let’s all discuss and even vigorously “argue” the issues but please drop the name calling. Shouting does not make a point more understandable, and sticking it to someone will never convert that person to your side. Please let us not hurt each other.
Surely we can debate without impugning the motives of others. No one here is evil. We just share different opinions. Different opinions make up a community. If we can’t safely share different opinions then we do not have a community.
The barbs directed at Cindy and others (primarily stated elsewhere) are among the worst I have ever seen. They are inconsistent with an stated desire to have a family friendly community. They are hate-filled and are intended to inflict hurt and pain.
I thought Ray’s tone to be quite respectable, even when disagreeing or questioning the views of others. It is the tone of someone making a point to a neighbor. Let us not forget that we are all neighbors here.
October 4, 2010 at 1:41 pm
Please no more, thank you for your comments. I hope my posts were not taken as calling anyone any names. I stated my position and why. Less I am misunderstood here goes. I have no problem with the City looking at regulating future SOB’s, I love that acronym! What I do have a problem with is people and the City going after a business owner who has done everything properly and obtained everything legally. I also have an issue with the use of children at these types of events. There is no need to bring your child to a protest of this kind. I also disagree that this business will be harmful to the community, but that is only my opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs. I can’t say that I have never put in writing something I wished I hadn’t, but quite frankly, Mr. Brown has made it a regular to resort to name calling and ridiculing fellow posters on here and other blogs, assuming there aren’t two Doug Browns