As mentioned in today’s MJM, there is an “Adult” shop that will evidently open on Battle street. I’ve been struggling with what to say in this forum about that store and I’ll say the following: It isn’t exactly what I had in mind when I started banging the drum for further investment in Old Town.
I have many more thoughts but I’m going to wait until after we meet with City Staff and Attorney on Tuesday. I’ve had to rearrange a big chunk of my schedule to get there but this is important enough for me to have the benefit of their advice and experience.
So, if you have something to say, please post away. I’m interested in everyone’s thoughts. Remember, this is a controversial issue and I expect folks to restrain their comments to the issue, not any individuals.
September 3, 2010 at 7:53 am
This is a pornography shop, plain and simple. They can say “Adult DVDs” and “Marital aids” and whatever all they want, but they’re peddling in the de-humanization and objectifying of people, especially women.
To everyone who would say “let the market decide if this shop is suitable” I respond with “if someone drops a heap of dung in the punch bowl you expect the host of the party to remove it and supply fresh punch, not let the guests tell you it stinks by not drinking from it.”
Sorry for the scatalogical metaphor, but this shop is just that – a turd in the punch bowl.
September 3, 2010 at 9:17 am
I appreciate what Jeff is saying. I don’t want the shop there either.
“Letting the market decide” may not be efficient or even workable in the short run, but “letting the government decide” is completely unnacceptable if the business is a lawfully operating business.
Going forward I do not oppose comprehensive planning and zoning regarding the kinds of new businesses we choose to permit in Old Town. Such planning is an appropriate government function, although I appreciate that it is perhaps too much interference for those who prefer a laissez-faire approach. In terms of a larger debate, we do need to get straight how “we don’t want government involvement except when we do,” at which point it is often too late.
I hope the current controversy does not function as a distraction for our elected officials who already have significant issues on their plates. They will need to resist the temptation to grandstand on emotional issues that are of lesser importance. There are already issues of importance that receive too llittle of their attention. [My point here is not that they are inattentive; rather, there are only so many hours in a day and they need to spend those hours wisely.]
At bottom: If the shop operates lawfully, the government should leave it alone. If the shop operates unlawfully, the government should seek all apppropriate remedies. Going forward the government should engage in prudent comprehensive planning and zoning to avoid similar situations in the future.
As a citizen, I can choose to not shop at the new store. I can show a cold shoulder to the owner. I can choose to pickett in front of the new shop, and I can support prudent plannning and zoning.
September 3, 2010 at 9:55 am
I’m going to cross-post some of the feedback I got on my facebook account:
“While I agree that it isn’t “old town America” storefront material, I believe that if they have been approved through all the proper channels it is not anyone’s place to decide for me what is appropriate for me to see and what is not.”
and
“As long as the storefront itself is conservative and doesn’t have toys and stuff in the window I don’t really see the problem. It could lead to a nice source of tax revenue for the city. Especially in this economy if you are going to be to picky about an “OldeTowne” kind of business…you may end up with LOTS of empty store fronts.”
and
” Andy, I have no problem with the Porn Shop’s right to exist. However, I do have an issue with the location. If any of the buildings in the Historic District were to make architectural or structural changes, those changes would need to be ap…proved. The reason the approval is required, is so that the historic integrity of Old Town remains intact. This business will most certainly negatively impact the historic integrity of OTM. In addition, I think it would be a shame to see all the years and dollars that have gone into making OTM into a family friendly destination, be diminished. ”
and
“Manassas cannot afford another lawsuit…NOT ON MY DIME! It’s a lawful business, appropriate licenses, let the rest be consumer driven. TAX AWAY my friend!!!! I’m tired of MY taxes going up because business is going down. WHO are WE to say not here? WTH…plan for the future, not yesterday! ”
and
“Was there a communication vacuum between zoning/permitting and the rest of the world?”
And that’s pretty much it for now….
September 3, 2010 at 10:29 am
I am appalled by the thought of my family friendly Old Town Manassas accepting this.
What has happened to the Zoning/Ordinance Committee?
Something to ponder: Would Michelle Obama and her daughter(s) visit Okra’s again if this shop was open? Mrs. Obama has helped put Old Town on the map and this business does not fit into that map!
September 3, 2010 at 10:53 am
When I received Del. Miller’s e-mail, I wrote a long response mainly to poke a point about the Moral part of our City Code. I had included our great City Clerk in the Cc asking it to be passed to the Mayor, the Council and anyone else in City Hall she saw fit to do.
Now, as I said in that email, I am not a prude and as a young soldier saw a lot of things in a lot of places in this world, and as an old soldier had to deal with my charges who were somewhat wayward. My main point was does the Moral portion of our City Code apply.
Of course, there are the arguements that we already have MVC and Fashion Fantasy in town, so the type of business already has precidence – ok, can’t argue with that. Whether those stores operate within the scope of the Moral Section of the Code is for the City to determine.
There is one other City document already adopted and that is the Old Town Sector Plan from 2008.
One interesting line on Page 6 – “Protecting the Victorian ideals of the Town” – definitely conflicts with this type of retail store if certain items are sold that conflict with the Moral sections….which also read a bit Victorian. I say that as that portion of the Code is from 1978, and there have been several Supreme Court rulings which should be compared to what we have (a job for our City Attorney).
Page 19: “A vibrant and active Old Town area with additional retail and sufficient parking throughout the area – a place that is filled with “children and
flowers”. The “children” is from what I read an arguement against the store location.
When you read down that whole plan, this store does not match the vision, strategies, design and all the other recommendations in the report. Nor from what the members of HMI and OTBA have said or written (as I recall, Matrix says they’ll give you about a $1000 worth of computer support once you set up shop).
I suggest a review of the approved Comp Plan – Sector Plan in all the reading folks are doing. Aligns with Rich’s comments a bit here…although I think the approval process was a bit laissez-faire in not reviewing the application against the approved Plan.
September 3, 2010 at 11:24 am
The Mayor was calm and factual in his statement to the News & Messenger, unlike our delegate, who got in front of a TV camera and used “PORN” and “MANASSAS” in the same sentence. Thank you.
In my mind, you either you welcome business or you don’t. You’re either “An Old Town With an New Attitude” or you’re not.
The money that has been spent in Old Town is worth it. The City’s done a great job setting the stage. It’s up to the businesses to play nice together. It’s not very nice to condemn your neighbor before they even move in or you get a chance to welcome them. Work together. Communicate. Network. Even pool resources. Why can’t the bed & breakfasts partner on “Romance Packages” like B&B’s in other tourist areas do (stay at the B&B, go on self-guided history tours and here’s a coupon for that “naughty” shop on Battle Street). Why not advertise bridal shower parties in the big room at Okras, with cross promotion to the new shop?
From what the owner has said, she plans tasteful window displays that won’t phase parents walking their children to the arts center (have you seen the arts centers in other urban areas? There’s plenty of “flavor” surrounding them).
If the OTBA, HMI, the City and our delegate THINK instead of REACTING, you’ll find that this store can do for Old Town what Ginger Rogers did for Fred Astaire – give it sex appeal. Give this store owner a chance.
September 3, 2010 at 2:31 pm
Here Here Cindy…AWESOME…maybe you should be in charge of marketing for the City!!!!
I look at what has gone up so far and it looks tasteful to me. I don’t see neon signs flashing or anything to that effect…HECK, look at the new color of Okra’s…That’ll just about blind you!
I WISH we still had the stores of yesteryear.. Rohrs is gone, Cookes Pharmacy is gone, the candy store is gone…hmmmm???? I wish we had a “Soda fountain” in OTM….like Cookes used to be…DO I MISS THAT PLACE! I MISS Rohrs too.
It’s a legit business, going through all the proper channels and HOPEFULLY will abide by all laws…I TRULY do not understand the big fuss. If people don’t want to buy from them, DON’T!
All of these, MORAL MAJORITY folks (let he who is without sin cast the first stone)…I guess next on their list will be book burnings, prohibition, etc…I believe Jerry Falwell has risen from the Dead!
Someone said prostitution was going on, on Main street….hadn’t heard that one…and what does THAT have to do with a store that hasn’t even opened yet? That sounds like a job for the police department.
IF YOU TRULY WANT TO KEEP YOUR KIDS AWAY FROM THE UNWANTED ELEMENTS OF SOCIETY, the only kid friendly place is the Ice Rink in the winter for 4 months and subway. Because the rest of OTM is now filled with BARS….and….BARS….and BARS….and…OH YA, BARS…and you worry about this shop? CUT ME A SLACK BURGER WITH CHEESE…please!
How many parents stay with their kids while they’re at the Ice Rink…Raise your hand?!?!?! How many parents know every minute of the day, where their kids are…RAISE YOUR HAND?!?!?! Don’t let society raise your kid and then blame society when something happens to them. ACCEPT YOUR OWN RESPONSIBILITIES!
….and YOU DON’T KNOW, Mr. Hunter, some people might like turds in their punch.
September 3, 2010 at 2:56 pm
Hi Andy! I can’t believe I’m diving into this one, but here goes anyway.
I have mixed feelings about this shop. I went to the shop’s website, and it states: “We specialize in adult toys, adult DVD’s, fetish wear, exotic massage oils, bondage gear, sexual wellness products, seductive shoes, games, books and erotic lingerie for both men and women of all sizes. We also carry a full line of party gifts for bridal showers, bachelor and bachelorette parties and an array of sexy and unusual costumes.” It doesn’t sound like a porn shop to me, but at the same time it’s a little more than just an upscale lingerie shop. I have a hard time seeing how any of those things would be suitable as a window display. I wouldn’t consider any of the pictures I saw on the website tasteful, and you have to be 18 to even enter the website store. I also find it interesting that right now it is down for “maintenance.” It’s not a shop I’m interested in frequenting, nor do I particularly want to have to explain it to my boys while we’re walking down the road.
Having said that, the quickest way to cause the shop to linger is to oppose it. Just imagine all of the people who will come out in support of the store for months on end if the fine people of Old Town protest. People who support these types of shops will come from out of the area just to support the principal of the matter, and the issue will linger far longer.
I think the better thing to do is to leave it alone and let it sink or swim on its own. If it really doesn’t reflect the desires of the majority of people who live/work/shop in Old Town, then it will fail quickly enough. On the other hand, if it does well it will be because it does reflect the values and desires of a majority of the people. If that’s the case then you have a far bigger issue on your hands than the mere existence of a naughty store.
September 3, 2010 at 3:35 pm
Hi Andy, thank you for providing this forum for comments. I am so glad that we have you and the rest of city council working on this.
I think people can learn more about what this store will be like if they visit the store’s website. It is on the store’s window. I will not link it here as I wouldn’t want to link your blog to a website of this nature. There is a disclaimer that one must click on to prove one is 18 years of age and to acknowledge that you will “view explicit images, sexual photos, and other topics which may be disturbing …”
Before the NBC4 story, the online store with product descriptions was still on the website. It has since been taken down and is now “under construction”. The site included much more than simple lingerie and it is unfortunate that it has not been left intact so that others can be informed.
As you know, this about location. Historically, shops like this have the potential to begin blight. I am also concerned about it being located within 100 feet of The Center for the Arts, where parents drop off their children for art and theatre education. The Center for the Arts is a family-oriented place that offers so much to the children of the entire northern Virginia region. The Center brings families into old town Manassas from Fairfax and other areas. I have seen parents go shopping or across the street to eat at City Square Cafe after dropping off their children at class. The Center for the Arts is also opposed to this shop, and I want to help them in any way that I can.
Many parents have come to me in the last few days and are very concerned. They’re really upset. They feel frustrated and are asking me what they can do. In addition to encouraging them to attend the town hall meeting on Tuesday night at City Hall, I will also let them know that city officials are meeting next week and that this blog is open for comments.
Thanks Andy, for providing this online forum and for the thoughtful attention you give all city issues, including this one. It is appreciated.
September 3, 2010 at 5:14 pm
and three Hoo-raas to Cindy! She makes the arguement for my “other side of the coin”. I like that idea of the B&B, and for that matter, all stores in the Historic District and on the fringes (as the Comp Plan speaks to), working together.
I ponder one thing today – if someone opened a shop which supplied Civil War reenactors with equipment, supplies, etc……AND they hung the Confederate Battle Flag out front (the “Stars & Bars”), would there be an uproar?
Oh that dreaded Flag! The symbol of slavery, etc etc etc….
So would there be an uproar? Not likely.
September 3, 2010 at 6:08 pm
I think highly of Jackson Miller and the Center for the Arts but I disagree on this one.
The railroad tracks are more dangerous to children than this family-owned business, and increasingly vacant storefronts in Old Town will lead to blight long before this little occupied store ever will.
There’s been an adult video store within walking distance of Central Library, Kindercare and Parkside Elementary for years and nothing’s happened. I don’t remember an uproar and I live within two miles of it. No blight that I’ve heard of. Just thriving businesses, including BB&T and Synergy.
So Andy, is the city council part of this town meeting on Tuesday night?
September 3, 2010 at 11:06 pm
Andy,
I guess there are some folks who read your blog and wish to take things out and posted them on other sites as if I was talking directly to them, not to mention context!….Anyway…..
Manassas City has taken a lot of heat over the last couple of years and cost the tax payers a LOT OF MONEY.
The owner of this business, so far, has followed the rules as set to date. NOW, because some folks don’t agree with this type of business, they want to change the rules in the middle of the game.
Lessons learned, move forward, and change the rules for any new occupants in “OLD TOWN”, if that’s what the masses want. However, to change the rules now will only cost us TAX PAYERS more money. Frankly, I’m tired of picking up the tab for folks not thinking ahead!
I’m also mad that an elected official, who is NOT part of the City Council, is making the City look “The Fool”, as well as The City Council, in front of TV Cameras. I’m MAD…I’m REALLY MAD. How does one over come that?
I’ve lived here ALL MY LIFE and more crap has made us, here in the City, look bad in the last so many years than the previous 200! (not that I’m that old…although some days I feel like it and not that we’ve been a City that long…but I digress.)
I just want the Mayor and Council to think this through before making a “knee jerk” reaction. I truly feel sorry for you folks as I do for all of the citizens of Manassas City. This is a sad time that is dividing a GREAT CITY!
I feel this ENTIRE situation could have been handled a LOT BETTER and without the PRESS that we are getting!!!! I’m just sick of it…as well as YOU (the entire City Council) should be.
September 5, 2010 at 12:05 pm
“…adult toys, adult DVD’s, fetish wear, exotic massage oils, bondage gear, sexual wellness products, seductive shoes, games, books and erotic lingerie for both men and women of all sizes…”
Adults DVDs? Fetish wear? Bondage gear? Patty, if you don’t consider that a porn shop, what does a porn shop look like? Honestly, I’m happy to say, I’m not an expert on the subject but I believe a porn shop would be any retail establishment that sells porn. Adults DVDs hits that mark but then go beyond that as we will apparently be graced with adult toys, fetish and bondage gear.
Lets wake up people. This store is wildly inappropriate for the Old Town Business District and everyone knows it. Cindy, I don’t think Old Town needs “sex appeal”. I think it needs to continue to provide an atmosphere of fun for the entire family. How is this for a rule of thumb: Any establishment that you can’t take your kid or your family into is not appropriate for Old Town.
Do they have the right to open up in Old Town? Apparently they do. Does that make it right or appropriate? No. Just as local residents protested what Disney’s theme park would do to the local character of our region, we must speak against what a porn peddling shop will do the character of Old Town Manassas. In the case of Disney, they had the right to set up their theme park adjoining the battlefield but they respected the sensibilities of the local citizenry and went elsewhere. The sex/porn shop should do the same.
September 5, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Hi Dan. I guess we are working from different definitions. I think to characterize every shop that sells any pornographic material as a “porn shop” is too broad. Then you’d have to consider any bookstore that sells Playboy a porn shop. I think to be considered a porn shop, it has to have the distribution of pornographic material as its primary purpose. When I think of porn shops, I think of books, magazines, DVDs, viewing rooms, etc. These types of shops not only tend to attract a troublesome clientele, they also sometimes lead to illegal behavior such as obscenity and even prostitiution.
On the other hand, it seems that others would like to characterize this shop as just an upscale lingerie shop, kinda a cross between Victoria’s Secret and Frederick’s of Hollywood, and I don’t think that’s accurate either. I don’t think there would be much opposition to something like that in Old Town.
I think this shop falls in the middle. I think the focus of this shop is not on porn but on partnered adult romantic pleasure. There is nothing illegal nor even inherently immoral about that. I also don’t think it has the same potential to lead to blight or illegal activity.
What concerns me about this shop is twofold. One, it is clearly an adult shop, not suitable for underage children. Its location near the Candy Factory and a candy store is troublesome, as is the question of whether this type of store fits in with the family atmosphere of Old Town. Rich above has already spoken quite eloquently about that question, so I will just say I agree with him.
The other concern for me, though, is that it is starting to seem to me that the owner is being disingenuos. She has tried to portray it as an upscale shop and that it will be tastefully done. But then she has taken down the part of her website that would allow the public to see what she really sells. That makes me immediately suspicious. If she’s being truthful, then what does she have to hide. What is really going on here?
I do believe that all of the attention being drawn is a bad, bad idea. It will bring more attention and more focus on this store than it otherwise would have. Just imagine having Code Pink or some other such organization protesting in Old Town and what a mess that would be. That’s my fear – that people who have nothing to do with Old Town or with Manassas will jump on the bandwagon of this issue and make it their pet project. That’s what I fear all of this attention will lead to. And without it, I really do believe the store won’t last very long at all.
September 5, 2010 at 6:26 pm
I hear what you’re saying, Patty. I guess the challenge is we don’t really know what the nature of the shop is. It sounds like they are changing their story a bit. I’m not really confident that what they are saying now will match what they actually sell after the store opens.
I personally am about as laissez faire as you can get when it comes to free trade. On the other hand, I believe a community’s mores and sensitivities should be and must be taken into account when a sexually-oriented business plans to open.
It would be nice to see some magnanimity on the part of KK’s – to have them release a statement that, while they believe they have every right to open on Battle Street, they respect the concerns of those who are opposed to such a store on and that they are going to look for a different location.
September 5, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Most of the articles mentioned are not what most of the world considers ‘pornography.’ Most customers in shops selling erotic material are women. Some are couples and there are a few men buying their wives or girlfirends a surprise.
How have we managed to walk past Victoria’s Secret and condom displays in Giant and CVS all these years?. Do we keep our kids out of the mall and the grocery stores? How about Barnes and Noble because Playboy and Penthouse are sold there?
Cindy Brookshire is right. Additionally, I think a lot of men simply don’t understand erotica shops that cater to women. K K Temptations might just be a shot in the arm to Old Town, a new revitalization, as it were.
It appears that too many people are using kids as an excuse to avoid their own uneasiness with the subject.
September 5, 2010 at 8:14 pm
Would like to see the same magnanimity on the part of our delegate instead of suggestions of a “sustained group of two or three volunteers standing in front of, or near the shop, with a video camera doing a live feed to the internet” (from an email marketing piece) or statements like “I know city [officials] are very upset and trying to find a way to get rid of the shop. And I’m glad they are” in The Washington Post’s Prince William section today.
I just hope the news from the closed session is good and no lawsuits go flying.
There’s a store called “Fashion Fantasy” on Route 28 near the McDonalds — a visit there would probably give you a good idea of the type of merchandise this boutique would carry.
September 5, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Dan, that’s where we can both agree. I wish the owner had been a better neighbor by being more open and up front about the nature of her business. Randy, I don’t think people are objecting to the condoms and the erotic magazines. It’s the sex toys and the fetish wear that are getting people up in arms. Cindy, I hope Fashion Fantasy is what it turns out to be like. My understanding from reading the description on the website is that it will be more like La Teche in Old Town Alexandria.
September 5, 2010 at 8:39 pm
Oh, and the modest person in me needs to point out that I’ve never been to either of those shops nor had ever heard of them before the latest event. I just googled them. And of course, now my computer keeps automatically offering me Frederick’s of Hollywood advertisements. Ah! Modern technology – how lovely!
September 6, 2010 at 8:00 am
It’s women lib. Ya, baby, you’ve come a long way.
September 6, 2010 at 8:08 am
Cindy,
I guess we should aspire to be more like Baltimore? Have our own red light district, right? After all it’s only art right? Do you think there is a waiting list of families wanting to move into that part of Charm City?
There’s a reason why many if not the majority of Americans do not want to live in “Art” districts, and why many people do not want to live next to these types of stores.
But, keep thinking in your oh so progressive mind that having a bunch of these types of shops would be a great thing for the City.
How is this shop going to go over for the Fall Festival, or the Railroad festival?
September 6, 2010 at 10:45 am
Check out another woman-owned business in Old Town Manassas, been there for years:
http://www.magnificentbellydance.com
They’ve danced at the Harris Pavilion, in the Christmas Parade (scheduled again this year), at the Prince William County Fair. I believe the City’s recreation dept even listed their classes.
Funny how “progressive” goes back centuries. So do dirty minds. What is it about women’s sexuality, whether it’s access to legal health services, breastfeeding in public or buying discreet lingerie that gets people so upset?
September 6, 2010 at 11:27 am
It’s not discreet if it is hanging in a window for all to see. There is nothing wrong with such items of course. It’s the location of the store and how they will marketed and sold that is the problem.
What is “legal health services” Is that what “progressives” are calling baby murder these days? Talk about cowards, can’t even stand up and call it what it really is.
But, I suppose it’s progress won by the libs when women can have their babies killed on demand, etc,, etc. Funny though too that it seems more and more women are also in counseling these days. Though, I suppose there is no connection at all.
September 7, 2010 at 11:50 am
As long as all rules and regulations that are currently in place were followed, and to the extent this establishment conducts it’s business lawfully, I don’t think Council has any business getting involved.
Now, if some part of the processes required was NOT followed, then and only then in an oversight capacity of City Government should Council get involved.
Getting involved at this point seems to me purely political, and guarantees that now as it gets media attention Manassas will be known for three things: Bobbit, the Sign, and now the Store.
September 7, 2010 at 7:11 pm
What is it you expect to see hanging, CoM?
September 9, 2010 at 8:23 pm
Moon,
Questionable products that should not be seen by children.
September 10, 2010 at 6:38 am
The shop plans to sell adult DVDs, lingerie, adult novelty items, bachelorette items, bridal items, girls-night-out items, games, vibrators, whips, shoes, candles, lotions and oils.
Whips? vibrators? maybe if women acted like women, they would not need to have such items. I’ll just have to point out again, I thought women’s lib was about freeing women, how is being whipped freedom?
September 10, 2010 at 11:03 am
“Questionable products that should not be seen by children.”
What part of the proprietor’s having clearly stated under 18 persons will not be allowed in the store do you not understand?
September 11, 2010 at 6:52 pm
What part of unless they black out the windows, kids passing by will be able to see the whips and products used by the oh so liberated women.
September 11, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Why would anyone want to sell a product that is so offensive as to cause the store to have an age limit to even enter the store? And some seem happy to have such a store in the City?
I know there are some people, mostly libs, who love mostly everything, that do not like guns. However VA Arms is clearly a gun store, you can see guns from the outside of the store, and there is not an age limit to enter the store.
Kids can even go into the ABC store.
There is nothing so offensive about either store, but there sure is with this “store”.
September 12, 2010 at 8:24 am
Actually, Citizen, last I heard the women use the whips on the men. Why would you assume it was the other way around?
Are you afraid Mrs. Citizen is going to sneak in there and come home and take you to task with one of those whips?
September 12, 2010 at 11:25 am
No, my wife does not use, or would ever use such “products”, due to having morals, and knowing right from wrong.
September 12, 2010 at 9:41 pm
@CoM
Snicker
September 13, 2010 at 7:04 pm
Moon,
Snicker all you want.
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