The new Fire & Rescue ordinance was approved unamimously last night. This is the draft that allows for a vote in the Public Safety Committee. The Career Chief still retains day-to-day control over the system. I’m looking forward to everyone working together and getting this thing rolling!
January 26, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Sorry Councilman Harrover, but you and the rest of the council let the citizens of Manassas down. I am not sure how all the educated people on the Council see this as a workable situation. I will tell you first, it isn’t going to work and my guess is the Chief will get tired of trying to get his policies in a committee stacked against him and just quit. But maybe that is what the council wants, or maybe what Mayor Parrish wants. Either way, I hope no career or volunteer staff are hurt or worse, killed, in the line of duty because the chief couldn’t get his policies approved and the department crews working on the same page. You should all be ashamed for letting the career staff of the FD and the citizens down.
January 26, 2010 at 6:07 pm
Job well done Andy.
January 26, 2010 at 7:54 pm
You all have a lot of time in this,lets see how it works before the condenmation proceedings. Thank You
January 26, 2010 at 8:28 pm
Mr Harrover, as the volunteers now have equal vote and input on all policies, how exactly does “The Career Chief still retain day-to-day control over the system”? Doesnt he really have day-to-day control as long as he is only doing what the volunteers have approved him to do?
I think what you really mean is that he is responsible for the system, not that he can control anything. Isnt that true?
Perhaps if the conditions of the ordinance were explained a little better, we might better understand.
Help us understand.
January 26, 2010 at 8:34 pm
I may be wrong, and if I am please correct me, but don’t the volunteers have four people on the committee to two representing the career staff? How is that control? This is a disaster waiting to happen and it is only a matter of time before there is a blow up between the career staff and volunteers or even worse, a tragic accident on the fire ground. I hope I am wrong, but I am afraid I am not.
January 26, 2010 at 8:51 pm
ManCityResident, yes, you are correct that the deck is stacked 4 volunteer votes against 2 career votes. The only way the career chief can get a policy approved is to hope one volunteer department will turn on the other. Now that the volunteer rescue squad has abandoned their support of the career chief and are standing with the volunteer fire company, we know how impossible it will be to split their votes on anything but really trivial issues.
How exactly does this system breed teamwork and cooperation? I think it will only further strain the volunteer and career relations.
January 26, 2010 at 9:45 pm
And the real nice thing the Council did for the Chief is leave him with all the liability as the Chief. Real nice job Council. I hope the IAFF comes out at election time and campaigns against you all. Hey career FF, if you need some help speak to the area unions, we will help with the campaigning in Manassas. Once it is explained to the citizens the danger of what Council has done, from professionals, maybe you guys can get this done right. Also, If you have any volunteer FF’s who are career staff in other unions, you should contact their rep and put the gag order on them. Dirty play should result in dirty play when it comes to your safety and the citizen’s safety.
January 26, 2010 at 11:00 pm
The chief has shown real starch. It is now for the volunteers to lose the deal. My feeling is that they will play well and we will all win.
I don’t recall when this was discussed in earlier blogs but let’s not forget the huge dollars we save by having the volunteers. I don’t know the actual numbers but between salaries and benefits the it must be very large.
At bottom, let’s make this work. The time for throwing rocks — if there was ever an appropriate time — is over.
January 26, 2010 at 11:31 pm
I agree with Rich and Bud, time to work together.
Bring CERT and Fire Corps training to the community and help all of us citizens learn how to live safer lives and help support you in your jobs.
Somebody owes Andy a decent cup of real firehouse coffee.
January 27, 2010 at 12:13 pm
To say that the VRS has abandoned the Fire Chief is tilting at windmills that do not exist.
January 28, 2010 at 12:19 am
I quoted Grocho Marx on Monday night when he said “Sometimes we have to do the nastiest of things to the nicest of people”. I made my point in my write-up, thankful both volunteers and career would speak to me and a good exchange of thoughts, ideas were said and we all listened to each other. Professional – and maybe personal – courtesies all around!
I said and wrote my piece, and now will watch to see how it all comes out. Mind you, I stand by my opinions I wrote up.
The MOST SUPRISING thing in all of this is how our local rag actually wrote a decent article! I was stunned in reading how balanced it was. Maybe now that the News & Messenger is consolidating in one place in the City, things will be looking up!
Maybe.
January 28, 2010 at 7:42 am
David B., thanks for your thought, but really….
The volunteer squad stood beside the career chief up until the vote, then after meeting with the vice mayor and the fire company leaders ina secret meeting at the rescue squad building, stood beside the fire company in calling for a restricition of the chief’s authority to do anything without a vote or permission. The guy was stabbed in the back without as much as a moments notice or a courtesy call.
You call that support? Really?
January 28, 2010 at 7:47 am
Mr Harrover, we know you read this blog but you have been busy and may have missed this one, so again…..
Mr Harrover, as the volunteers now have equal vote and input on all policies, how exactly does “The Career Chief still retain day-to-day control over the system”? Doesnt he really have day-to-day control as long as he is only doing what the volunteers have approved him to do?
I think what you really mean is that he is responsible for the system, not that he can control anything. Isnt that true?
Perhaps if the conditions of the ordinance were explained a little better, we might better understand.
Help us understand.
January 28, 2010 at 8:38 am
Concerned:
What specific section of the code are you asking about? Please provide a specific section number.
Oh, also, you are right, I do read this blog from time to time…
January 28, 2010 at 8:51 am
Councilman Harrover, maybe I should interject on Concerned question. I don’t believe he is asking about any one code section. The question is as a whole, doesn’t the current ordinance really leave the Chief with the responsibilities, but no day to day control. Here is my point, if the Chief writes a SOP that he wants all equipment with a mixture of career and volly staff and wants it implemented today, can that happen? Because if the answer is no, it can’t happen today, then the Chief doesn’t have day to day control. Counciman Harrover, you can the rest can spin it any way you want, but you all left the Chief on an island and now the career staff is left feeling like guests in their workplace. Maybe you should pull the career staff aside and ask them by themselves what the current climate is in the firehouse. I think you would be surprised as I have had the opportunity to speak to a few of them.
January 28, 2010 at 9:03 am
MCR:
The answer is that in no version of the code that has been proposed did the chief have that kind of authority. The sole exception would be emergencies.
Allow me to also add that it is not my understanding the Chief ever asked for that kind of unilateral authority.
January 28, 2010 at 2:17 pm
ManCityRes, thank you for clarifying my question. I believe that you made the point better than I and demonstrated that the career chief has no real ability to do anything. However, he is held accountable for everything.
Mr Harrover, are you kidding us? For anyone, including me, that ever heard the career chief speak, he consistently indicated that he required operational control. Other things like planning, budgets, vehicles, and other longterm issues he supported the committee approach. But he was consistent in citing that he needed authority to control the operations items. Anyone who has read a newspaper in the last year has seen that point made over and over.
ManCityRes identified an operational control issue that you say the chief does not have. But in the new code, it says that the career chief is responsible for matters, including the coordination of career and volunteer staffing. So, even in hindsight, we don’t know what we are asking of him.
So how can we hold him accountable, but give him no authority? Lets face it. Everyone caved into the volunteers fire company, stopped listening to the career chief, and now are hoping that no one gets hurt or killed. And we have a code that makes no sense whatsoever.
January 28, 2010 at 5:37 pm
Let me ask the question in a simplier way that may make the point clearer..
Other than on an emergency scene, if he happens to be there, what actions may the career fire chief take, what decisions may he make, or what actions may he order without first being required to ask the volunteers for permission, or bring the issue to a vote?
If the answer is “none” , then he doesnt have operational authority. He is just the guy held accountable.
January 28, 2010 at 5:50 pm
Concerned, I am going to assume you have some sort of public safety experience. You seem to have a good sense of the problems with this whole thing. My question would be, would we ever even think of having our police chief operate under such conditions? I all ready know the answer, it is no. So why do we make the fire chief operate under these conditions? I can’t believe any councilmember would ever try to defend this ordinance. I hope the career staff gets their union involved and seeks the assistance of the other fire department unions in NOVA. I would also suggest to them they contact the union reps of any volunteer who is career somewhere else and remind them they are career staff and should stay out of this issue in Manassas. I for one would vote for my departments union to assist the career staff in Manassas with their issue. It is time the citizens of Manassas know what is going on with this issue and get both sides out. The chief’s only fault is he has been way to accomodating in the whole issue.
January 30, 2010 at 10:07 am
ManCityRes, I’m not sure what the unions would care to do or say. Maybe something for a union affiliate to weigh in on.
But I would like to have the question answered by Mr Harrove, since he created the code. So I’ll ask it again in hopes he will answer me:
“Other than on an emergency scene, if he even happens to be there, what actions may the career fire chief take, what decisions may he make, or what actions may he order without first being required to ask the volunteers for permission, or bring the issue to a vote?”
Like I said before, if the answer is “none” , then he doesnt have operational authority. He is just the guy held accountable.
January 30, 2010 at 5:45 pm
Concerned, thanks for asking the question of the honorable councilman. My bet is you wont get an answer. But the Union could weigh heavily at election time. remember, in a local election only a few votes seperate winners from losers. Having career professional union members going door to door letting the citizens know what this council has done, might lead to change. I for one will remember when it comes to election time. My first vote will be for anyone running against the current mayor.
January 31, 2010 at 10:13 am
“Concerned, thanks for asking the question of the honorable councilman. My bet is you wont get an answer.”
Mr Harrover?
February 2, 2010 at 7:00 am
Hello??? Hello? Mr Harover ????
Before you retire this blog, could you please answer this question, posted for the third time without an reply from you? Inquiring minds want to know.
“Other than on an emergency scene, if he even happens to be there, what actions may the career fire chief take, what decisions may he make, or what actions may he order without first being required to ask the volunteers for permission, or bring the issue to a vote?”
Like I said before, if the answer is “none” , then he doesnt have operational authority. He is just the guy held accountable.