My Side of the Fence

The danger isn't going too far. It's that we don't go far enough.

Budget Work Session

The Council met to discuss the results of the public hearing this evening.  The meeting was about 3 hours long.

There were 2 changes made to the money side of the budget.  The first was to convert one Batallion Chief position to be filled by a volunteer.  This was unexpectedly contentious and there may be more work done on the position to ensure that the Council is getting what we expect to get. 

The second was to triple the BPOL exemption to $150k to help small businesses grow. 

Many more were discussed, some were voted on and some were just discussed but we’ve got a propsed budget.  One last thing: for all of you out there that believe the Council doesn’t listen and you’re wasting your time by speaking, you’re wrong.  The objections to the BPOL schedule were brought forward Monday morning and a solution crafted by about 3 that same day.  Input does matter.  Sometimes input is recieved and the answer is no but it isn’t always so.  In this case, input by local business owners and the Tea party (is that supposed to be all caps?) made for better tax policy.  Thanks to all who participated. 

Maybe we should have a beer summit with the TEA party folks…In any event, the budget is largely done and I’m glad, I need to get back to working on my business.

26 Comments

  1. I don’t understand “The first was to convert one Batallion Chief position to be filled by a volunteer.” at all. How does THAT work? What’s the concept? Was this suggested to Council by someone with first hand operational knowledge of how Fire and Rescue works around here?

    So the Station Captain positions remain eliminated?

  2. Raymond Beverage

    April 28, 2011 at 1:18 am

    BPOL increase – commendable. County raised theirs to 200K, but then they are after bigger businesses given there is more space for those to locate…especially with a lot of old strip mall type locations.

  3. I highly recommend Andy’s Beer Summits. There is nothing like having to look someone in the eye and have discussion with them. Having to do this transforms the discussion in ways too numerous to analyze here.

    Andy even makes you behave.

  4. The exemption increase will at least help the smaller businesses. And I’m up for the beer/tea bash. I like both but I’ll dump the tea and drink the beer!

  5. I don’t understand why city council insist on making the fire and rescue department the laughing stock in the area. You go from 3 battalion chiefs to 2 and 1 being a volunteer I ask you before you do this you check there officers certifications and compare it to certifications you need to be a battalion chief career or volunteer in the county you will be amused. Council it’s time to take a stand for what’s best for the citizens of Manassas and not rest on 120 years of tradition because the tradition is not what it once was.

  6. I think the certification issue is worth looking at.

  7. ManassasCityResident

    April 28, 2011 at 8:55 am

    Councilmembers, this WILL fail, the volunteer Battalion Chief, and I hope it doesn’t cost the life of any fireman or Citizen. I agree with confused and I am in no way affiliated with any side of the issue. I have been in the Fire Service for many years but not here. This may be the biggest joke I have ever seen. Please stop bending over and kissing the volunteer’s a$$ before you guys kill someone.

  8. I will second Moon Howler’s comments. The Beer Summits are very productive.

  9. Raymond Beverage

    April 28, 2011 at 11:39 am

    @David B Like you, I keep pondering this, and then woke up with it ringing in my ears – IF, repeat IF, the Council is taking the VFB Report and moving toward a “One Chief” model, it fits…although having three takes more wondering. As you know, a Battaltion Chief is normally over a couple of companies and take charge operationally at an incident when no other Senior Personnel is present. I can see with the Rescue Squad having one Bn Chief, and with the new Fire Station moved to FY2013 bond issue, maybe the second Chief and then the other Bn Chief is with the current Fire Station. One of those concepts where you get the personnel hired in place (allowing one year for the hiring, getting in house, getting process going) before new Station.

    Problem is, like you, I can’t figure out without the additional information – and the FRC Minutes are not addressing this anywhere nor do other worksession Minutes addressing it. Normally, a Bn Chief has more than one company underneath it…although the Volunteer Fire does say “Battalion” – so there is one. Although Andy makes a very, very telling statement – this is the way the Council wants it. Well, if they want backing, get the explanation out there! Wonder if this is part of why the outgoing Interim Chief last night eluded to the fact the Volunteer side has not been completely honest?

    I also see continuation of the split – if one of the Fire Bn Chiefs is for career, and one for Volunteer, then how is that supposed to work? It does not follow the recommendations from the VFB for the one Chief model, and converting FRC to admin body. I can understand the intent of having representation, but without explanation feeds the view the Council is “giving in”.

    Certifications: without looking at Emmitsburg website, and just relying on memory, a Bn Chief is a jack-of-all-trades when it comes to skills. From Fire Fighter, to Engineer, to having been a Lieutenant and Captain, and even EMT. A whole slew of what is required under the Standards. Dollar wise, I think the average runs around $55K – $65K for the position when looking nationally. I do know in my Volunteer Fire days, our Bn Chief had his certifications paid by our FC because it required a lot of continuing education costs.

  10. ManassasCityResident

    April 28, 2011 at 11:56 am

    The current system is absolutely a disaster waiting to happen. I feel for the new Chief, he has his hands full. Maybe he doesn’t, because he is only a chief in name only, we all know the volunteers are running the show.

  11. The comments about certifications are kinda where I was going with my earlier comments. For instance, I do believe that an officer at that level (career or volunteer) needs to be appropriately credentialed and recognized in that capacity by our operating partners. We don’t operate just in the City.

  12. This is just another instance where the Vol fire company has lied their way into convincing the Council to changing what they know was the right thing to bowing down and making a “Fatal decision” it may not happen today or tomorrow but it will happen. The volunteers think just because they change the rank of a few to Capt they are eligeable to run batt chief in the county, SO…..far from true , you still have to meet minimal qualifications and certifications .

    Mr. Beverage you refer to the FRC as not having documentation of these batt chiefs. They didnt because this was an issue for the Council to decide, what people fail to see is the council trumphs the FRC on this issue. You want an issue that should have been brought to the FRC that wasnt is the bi-law change by the Vol Fire co. in their line officer line up. This is clearly an operational change that needed to go there. It was outlined in the ordinance adopted last year. Another back door move…. im not trying to bash the Vol company however the interm chief and Asst chief of the FRD have been very up front and factual about all that they have presented and have a vested interest in making the TEAM work together but with all the mistrust it isnt gonna work for a while. Im not sure if council can change their vote on the Third Batt chief or not, I will say that Mr. confused said it best make the volunteers show their training certs. VDFD has a record of all training not emmitsburg , look at the unified rank structure presented to the FRC which outlines what is required for each position in PWC and may be adopted by the city.

    Mr. Harrover I ask you to please please dont let this fly this way, you have a great team that just needs some good leadership to make them shine. I would challenge you sir to really get a better understanding of what kind of liability not filling the Third batt chief requested could possibly bring by putting the wrong person or allowing the volunteers this power, their leadership changes yearly and they are elected by popularity not skills or education. Do you really want that kind of person making life changing decisions in an emergency situation when lives are on the line? The third Batt chief would not take away from the VOL staffing a Batt chief also it happens in the county every day. PWC has a 24 hour Batt chief and the multiple Vol agencies staff theirs as well and they Work together not against each other and it puts a career boss in the field 24 hours a day 7 days a week for those times where a Vol Batt chief cannot help out. I dont get it………I ve been around a long time in the fire service but times have changed tradition isnt the same anymore but I will say safety has been compromised once again….

  13. Folks: That’s enough. If you want to complain about volunteers or whomever, either take a measured, reasoned approach like Ray, use your real name or zip it.

  14. I just don’t get what you guys are doing Andy? You don’t need to authorize a Bn Chief position in order for some Volunteer to be called one. The URS takes care of that and requires nothing from Council.

    I will day again, the City is getting a new Fire Chief and he will be ably assisted by Chief House. You don’t need more paid Chiefs, you need the Captains that Chief Wood pulled put back in each station. Yes, the two that were pulled have since retired, but there are paid lt’s that are promotable to Capt.

    PS: the RSS comments feed is broken. None of these comments on this post have come through to RSS readers. I wondered why this post was so “quiet” in my reader.

  15. andy

    April 28, 2011 at 7:03 pm

    I broke the RSS functionality. I’ll figure it out at some point.

  16. Raymond Beverage

    April 28, 2011 at 8:01 pm

    @Educated
    I looked to the FRC Minutes to see if, when the Unified Rank Structure was presented, if there was any reference to Command Rank. When someone tells me they are doing a Rank Stucture Review, it is more than just the “low graders” to borrow a military term – my pondering at the time was after defining FF-I, FF-II, EMT et al, they would progress to the Command. I had it confirmed today the Command Rank was not looked at.

    You are correct about the Bylaws – having seen them since anyone can ask the MVFC to see them – it does define their Ranks and having this Bn Chief would require the Bylaws to be changed. I am also fully aware the City Code says the Council can dictate the structure: I wrote a 12 page memo to the Council with issues I had with the draft Code at the time and one of them was if you are going to make mandates, better make sure the nonprofits have lead time to present them to the memberships.

    As for the Volunteers of either house showing their training certs, look at the Bylaws again. There are confidentiality in personnel files…and if the Volunteers show theirs, Career should reciprocate. Now, I have suggested, since my VFC of long ago did it, have a roster publically posted showing name and qualifications (mine read FF-II, EMT, ACR for Firefighter, Emergency Medical Tech and Aircraft Crash Rescue). We in that company liked it, so we agreed to do it – sort of like anyone else with certs making an alphabet soup besides their name. Plus, it hushes the naysayers who say we are just a bunch of unqualified “jump & pump”. I offered the suggestion, and hopefully it will be considered.

    On Emmitsburg – of course they would not keep individual training records!! With all the Fire & Rescue in the USA, they would need a Cray Computer to manage it. I look to Emmitsburg since they are the Masters of the Standards.

    Finally, I agree with Andy that bashing the Volunteers without facts or simply saying things and not asking questions in a logical, debatable manner is out of line. Remember Sumner Lake? Remember Occoaquan Forest? As for “making life changing decisions”, when that Volunteer runs into my burning house to haul my sorry butt out of it, well, that is one heck of a life changing decision by him/her and for me! My issues remain more with Council and the FRC than individuals.

  17. Coupla things,

    The beer summits are the real deal. Pure transparency. And great beer (depending on who brings it!).

    Council is trying to do the right thing with the FD, though there is clearly lots of disagreement here and elsewhere. I assume, but don’t really know, that the credentialing issue can be objectively analyzed. Either the requirements are the same or they are not. Let’s find out if there is really something to argue about. Then let’s have an informed discussion.

    Ultimately, let’s do the right thing regardless of whether there is a liability issue.

    (Yo, Steve, see you at the next summit — whenever that may be — or maybe before then.)

    R

  18. Raymond Beverage

    April 30, 2011 at 9:31 pm

    well, 30 days leave between duty assignments is never a bad thing (been there, done that). I wish the Chief success and plenty of read-ahead time!

  19. Wow. I’m glad I don’t live in your city. Between the lack of police presence documented and letting volunteers dictate how first responders should be managed (all while your incompetent politicians continue to drive away highly experienced fire chiefs) it sure sounds like manassas isn’t a safe place to live!

  20. Raymond…If only that were the case! Assistant Chief Bowman went back to work for PWC and delayed his start date with Manassas because he’s having second thoughts about leaving his job to come to our city, where the council has a poor record of supporting the Fire and Rescue Department and their chief. And who can blame him?
    The council made a big mistake at the last budget hearing. At the least, they need to revisit the issue of the Volunteer Fire Company’s certifications, as the honorable Mr. Harrover mentioned above. The VFC does not have many members who are qualified to respond to emergency calls as Battalion Chiefs. What’s more, none of them are capable of providing the support and management required by the 24/7 operations of the paid staff of the Fire and Rescue Department.

  21. Raymond Beverage

    May 2, 2011 at 8:14 am

    @Fred – good observation as it reflects there is a major public relations issue going on. And voices in the wilderness cried out the City has no need for a central public affairs person to send out press releases??? Only place anyone heard about BPOL increase and end results of the budget worksession is here – too much lag time between when Council meets to conduct formal session and final word comes out. Public relation issues for sure.

    @Hopeful. Wow…

  22. ManassasCityResident

    May 2, 2011 at 8:27 am

    And Council refuses to open its eyes at the danger they continue to put us and trhe brave men and women, both career and volunteer, in! WOW!

  23. ManassasCityResident

    May 2, 2011 at 8:29 am

    “the” brave men and women…

  24. Leon Buckley

    May 3, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    There is a need for the City to confirm the findings of the local study that was just performed by outside authorities (Virginia Department of Fire Programs and Office of EMS) as to the Fire and Rescue System in Manassas. Each department that make up this system must serve as a responsible party of the system. They must be able to present individual training records, background checks, drug testing policies and results, knowledge and skill evaluations for each level of certification or position expected to be called on to performed on an emergency incident (Officer, Driver Operator, Firefighter, BLS or ALS provider. I know that these records exist with the career department as a operating standard and serves as a safeguard to the department and the City if the individual’s performance is questioned on an incident. Once a problem occurs on any incident, the facts about what occurred is gathered and the individuals involved actions and training is questioned. Policy and procedures are questioned to be appropriate for the situation and changes are made to correct the procedure, provide training and assure that quality service is being provided in a safe and efficient manner. That has not been allowed to occur here in Manassas because every enhancement attempted to bring equal accountability of each party in areas of training, driver programs, skill evaluation and most important of all incident management and safety is identified as a threat to the volunteers. “They will not be able to obtain the training”, “it places too much in the way of requirements on them”, “we have done it this way for over 100 years, why change”, “it will effect recruitment and retention”. I know when I first became involved as a volunteer the department I served with had requirements and you attended mandatory training or you did not ride on the equipment. Firefighting is dangerous, it always has been and always will. The City needs to look at the calendar, it’s 2011 and they need to bring the Fire and Rescue “System” up to date with one standard regardless if your paid or volunteer or if your volunteer or paid that assures safety of operations, efficient delivery of expected and appropriate services. Were not playing politics were playing with lives of the citizens and those who serve them.

  25. What is the reasoning behind not letting the Fire Chief handle the fire department? Since when do the volunteers get to have control over the entire city? There is a reason why they’re not providing the training documentation. Now, there are many things I think the City could/should skim off the top from. However, public safety is not one of them. Whether its the police department or fire department. Get ONE Chief in there and let him run the show. I’ve never seen something so ludacris as allowing the volunteers to dictate what should be happening. Did the volunteers really change the council’s budget decisions with one 2 minute speech? Without providing any documentation or statistics… and the council bought that??? Don’t the volunteers change their ranking officers yearly? What kind of consistency does that show? Do they not have full time careers that prohibit them from staffing in their alloted times now? Mr. Harrover, please do not be fooled by the volunteer fire departments antics. Yes, the volunteers do carry tradition. Some may have years of experience. And of course they are great supplemental staffing for the career staff, but as Leon Buckley mentioned, we’re not dealing with politics. The City of Manassas will not be able to have the “good boy system” and politic their way when it comes down to a citizen or firefighter death. It’s not worth it… as I’m sure you will agree. Please, listen to the people that do this for a living. They’re spending 1/3 of their lives in the fire/rescue houses… they might know a thing or two! Listen to the companies that are providing documentation of training and understand there is a huge difference between the career and volunteer fire department of Manassas City.

    Mr. Harrover, as a Manassas City resident yourself, how would you feel about an inadequately staffed fire engine responding to your house for a fire? Or, better yet, how about the early morning 5am call when the volunteers have unstaffed because they’re going to work and the Battalion Chief is responding from Bristow where his residence is? The old saying of “don’t play with fire” could not hold any greater value then the current situation that Manassas City is in. Please, don’t run off another Fire Chief. Let the career staff provide better care and support for the citizens of Manassas City.

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