As covered on the (uneven) Patch and the WaPo, there has been a sort of ROI study done on the school systems. It was done by the Center for American Progress. I’m not an expert on them but they appear to be a “progressive” think-tank sort of operation who advocate for progressive causes. In this case, they have done a study on educational investment – trying to measure what sort of “bang for our buck” that we get on our educational dollar.
As with any study, you should try to understand the criteria used. It’s very important. I’ve waded through a lot of it and at first blush, the study looks legit. The only piece I don’t know much about (and it is an important piece) is the “Leaders & Laggards” report. It looks pretty well sourced though and overall the study fits in with the Statewide report card I’ve seen.
The results for our city don’t look so great. The graph puts spending against performance and tells a sobering story. I’ve gotten a lot of questions about this and even been accused of hiding (!) from it but the truth is, I’m busy just like everyone else and don’t have the time to write and post everything in the world.
March 4, 2011 at 11:12 am
Center for American Progress is a pretty good bunch of thinkers – most of what they produce is like the old Sgt. Joe Friday “Just the facts, Ma’am”.
Some real heavy hitters in their Staff. Andy, that article on School Reform I sent you was from these folks.
March 4, 2011 at 1:09 pm
Andy
This is not just some off hand story. It’s about the agency we spend themost money on. Now maybe you did not want to come across as being indifferent but that how it sounds.
How many times have we heard you and other Council members talk about the need to attract young wealthy families to the City? And yet when again provided evidence the school system is failing you just seem to not be interested in doing anything about it.
At a time tax dollars are few, everyone should be concerned with waste.
March 4, 2011 at 2:51 pm
COM:
I beg to differ. I’m working my ass off on the schools dude. I’m sacrificing huge amounts of time on the “Education Forward” committee. It’s slow, sticky going and I’ve spent more time on that than I have on my Council commitments – including the Neighborhood Conservation thing.
I’m sorry if the notion that I’m out of time to do more offends you but it’s the simple truth. If you want to pitch in and do some analysis, email me. I could use the help.
March 4, 2011 at 3:44 pm
Sounds like a leadership issue to me, Andy. Being the head of a school system is more than “because I am the boss”. That is what we have now. We need superior visionary leadership…..damn, we’re paying big bucks for it now anyway. Part of the issue at hand is demographic, but if you have lemons, you damn well be a great lemonade maker. There are other regions with similar demographics we can compare ourselves to.
March 4, 2011 at 5:29 pm
Andy
I along with many others are fed up with the schools the lack of leadership etc. How much more bad news can we receive regarding the City and schhol system?
As with the gang/ illegal alien issue the City council needs to do something about the school system.
Ya i’ll help out if that means coming up with steps to help the City and schools.
March 4, 2011 at 11:16 pm
I have to agree with COM. This is a ‘big deal’ as they say. The schools are a MAJOR reason why upper middle class do not move into the city. To be listed as one of the lowest for ROI in education is both embarassing and frustrating for tax payors. Throwing up your hands and claiming “I’m out of time” is not the hallmark of good leadership. You are doing a disservice to yourself and to our city by being defensive on this issue. Schools take up the bulk of our tax dollars and should be a much higher priority to you and other elected officials in the city. The first step is to acknowledge that you have a problem.
March 5, 2011 at 8:41 am
Andy, remember when you’d blog about your garden? There was something peaceful about hearing how you toiled away, man against squirrel, connecting with the earth and feeling tired but good at the end of the day.
Having a bunch of people stand at your fence and rag on you about your tomatoes isn’t going to make them any better. Hand ’em shovels.
I was just at Metz yesterday working with students and other community members on a project. My children are grown, why should I care? Because I do. People cared enough to help my children when they were in public school.
March 5, 2011 at 12:22 pm
What to do about the schools performance I don’t know. What I DO know is that some 58% of my City property tax goes to the schools, seemingly regardless of how they perform, and I don’t even have a child eligible for City school for two more years. Do I think in 2 years when he’s old enough they will have turned around to the point the wife and I WANT him attending? At the rate its going it doesn’t look like it. So I must plan to “spend” a couple thousand each year on a school system I don’t think will be good for my son, plus budget the several thousands MORE to send him to a school I know will give him a better education and thus a leg up in life. Not a rosy picture and doesn’t make me desirous of staying in this City where I’ve lived for 15+ years. 🙁
March 5, 2011 at 1:28 pm
I going to come up on the defensive of Andy – he spoke his mind about the toils and troubles, and is slammed for his lack of leadership.
He at least is standing up and working to come up with plans to present to Council. And knowing some of the yokels he is having to deal with on the “Education Forward”, it is like salmon trying to swim upstream.
One crack in his armor though is not often asking directly for help. He did on the Neighborhood Conservation project, although after passing it to Staff, the talent he had in his living room may not be called upon to further aid. We now will have to wait, til the pieces come out per the timeline of the ordinance. I am sure his little Think Tank will be commenting as they come out.
That said, this City is also crappy on making use of talented volunteers, although Andy has been an exception. We have lots of talent spread across the various Boards/Committees/Commissions who volunteer our time, are subject because of the appointment to City Ethics Policy, the report card on our performance submitted to the CIty every six months, and for some, the Financial Disclosure Statements. When performing in our capacities as those appointees, the City garnishes some great talent. Unfortunately, we are not looked at that way.
Sometimes when in the middle of a field of manure, help has to be asked for to find the cow that made it all, then also find the BBQ grill so steaks can be served. There are a lot of us who care for our City and if asked, will step in.
March 5, 2011 at 4:37 pm
Thanks Ray for your support!
Agree about not asking for help often enough. We all have our shortcomings… My plans for the “think tank” were derailed by the murders in GTS. I had to compress the timeline mightily. I will be looking back to that group for help in the near future.
Too much talent to leave on the bench.
March 5, 2011 at 5:34 pm
Looks take a look at School Budget from a Comptroller viewpoint –
I go up to the MCPS website and all I see is the Washington Area Boards of Education (WABE) comparision and then the slides from Dr. Pope.
No budget book – nada, zip, nothing. No way to see breakouts by Cost Centers. Those Centers being the Admin, Maintenance, and each one of the Schools. No book like what Mr. Hughes has tossed up to show the various funds, departments, and the CIP.
So there sits Andy trying to make sense of the cost. We know the average cost per student, but what is the cost by Elementary, Middle and High? How can one tell even across the Elementary schools what it costs and if one of them costs more than the other? And if one costs more, why? And even within each one of the Centers, breakout by internal departments or education area (Grade Level, PE, Maintenance, Admin).
How and where can cost efficincy be grabbed? Does one school have an overstock of supplies another could use? Could MCPS be like other school systems with elected boards across the nation and say they will combine purchasing, fleet maintenance, facility maintenance crews with their corresponding local government’s?
And the CIP for MCPS – there is one area it should be combined with the City. MCPS is notorius for never maintaing a seperate one from their annual budget….and we all know one particular elementary school they have dropped the ball on keeping in the forefront on a CIP.
So if Andy is asking these questions and since I know what I wrote from a beancounter point of view most likely does not exist, no wonder he tosses his hands up in frustration!
March 5, 2011 at 7:44 pm
We are all frustrated. I think that’s a good thing. Once people have lost that, it’s all over. It does not matter, people will just pack and move. Those that have had their heads in the sand will be left to pick up the pieces.
The lack of any concern(has anyone heard from Pope or the board at all?) from the school board and Pope is very telling. What are these people thinking? Do they feel we are just stupid and not paying attention to what is going on with the school system?
March 6, 2011 at 11:45 am
Andy H,
From my observations over the years, I think you are a well meaning, hard working, and honest public servant, but I am afraid our public school system is managed like a Soviet industrial enterprise, i.e., all top down for the benefit of the top directors with everything else a show, a farce to keep employees and stakeholders distracted from the fact that the vacuum hose the enterprise produces is not functional, worthless, except as a prop for the entertainment and enrichment of the Red Directors.
The fact that these ‘props’ are children; our children makes the current crisis in our school system unacceptable. There are many great teachers in our public school system, they deserve better, more open and accountable management, and so do the kids and parents of Manassas.
March 6, 2011 at 5:05 pm
Did anyone go to the OHS rising-freshman parents meeting last week?
March 6, 2011 at 5:38 pm
I was there. It was a mess. Room full of people but they didn’t use a PA system. Couldn’t hear anything.
btw, is this “Sarah” that’s posting also my wife?…:)
March 8, 2011 at 8:33 pm
It’s real easy to stand on the side lines and b!tch and moan about something continually. I heard how some of you talk about your school system and its teachers. Perhaps if the complainers helped out a little, volunteered to help a kid with reading or with a homework club after school, your school system would be a lot better.
How many of you nay-sayers even have a dog in the fight or more specifically, a kid in the schools? Andy has a vested interest in making sure the City School system is as good as it can be.
The place to start is by sending the message that you value the teachers and the students.
To those like me who don’t live in the City, things don’t look so bad!
March 8, 2011 at 9:28 pm
Moon-howler,
You have got to be kidding me. Dr. Pope is making $178,000 per year plus plenty of benefits and several of her PhD friends are making 6 figure salaries. The study looked at return on investment in education and found Manassas at or near the bottom. By any and all objective measures of education City schools are coming below average (per their own website). There is only a 75% graduation rate. These are real issues that tax paying citizens should rightly be upset about. We are paying a lot of people a lot of money who are not performing. Your suggestion to correct the situation by “volunteering to help a kid with reading or with a homework club after school” is distracting and simplistic. How would you feel about 58% of your property tax dollar continually going into a black hole?
March 8, 2011 at 10:37 pm
You and I both know why there are 75% graduation rates. The schools can only deal with what is sent their way. How on earth can a school control kids who move out of area and don’t re-enter another jurisdiction. It can’t. As long as Manassas has the demographics it has, it will have to deal with problems like drop out rate.
For the record Dr. Pope isn’t making all that much money compared to other superintendents in the area.
What is it you would like for Dr. Pope to perform? Volunteer citizens and parents can make all the difference in the world in a school system, especially with kids who have limited resources at home.
I think you are the one who is thinking simplistically. Rather than just criticize Dr. Pope, state exactly what it is you want her to be doing. Spend some time volunteering instead of beefing and criticizing. I seriously doubt if any of you that are complaining have any idea what the challenges of that school system really are.
Around 58% of my local taxes do go into my school system. Is it perfect? No. But before I start slamming I am going to go in and see what I can do to help the situation.
March 8, 2011 at 11:04 pm
I actually don’t know why Manassas has a 75% graduation rate. If you are implying that it has anything to do with poverty or ethnicity then how do you explain Manassas Park as one of the highest ROI for education in the metro DC area? Modern society has objective measures of performance in almost all areas. Education of children is no different. Manassas City schools are failing in these measures and are consuming a disproportionate amount of resources when compared to similar jurisdictions. You want to know what I think Dr. Pope should do? Quit and let someone more capable take the post.
March 9, 2011 at 6:25 am
@countrydoc,
ROI and graduation rates aren’t the same thing. Your graduation rate is low because you have 1 high school. Compare OHS to Stonewall or Garfield. or any high school that has similar demographics.
Check comment #6 Firedancer on my blog for the explanation:
http://www.moonhowlings.net/index.php/2011/01/04/virginia-school-graduation-and-dropout-rates-2008-2010/
Basically, immigrant families will move and not re-enroll in another school system. Therefore a kid who moves and doesn’t re-enroll causes OHS to own that kid when graduation rates are calculated. Its not particularly fair. Because there is only one high school, the problem isn’t diluted by 11 other high schools.
March 9, 2011 at 8:43 am
I’m confident the same good city leaders, administrators, teachers and city folk who rallied around a natural disaster (the snow load damage to Mayfield Intermediate last year) can tackle this demographic one together.
Manassas Park deserves a spotlight — their success took a combination of factors, including a community that put in sweat equity along with school leaders, and took 15 years to accomplish.
How does complaining and finger-pointing move us forward?
March 9, 2011 at 11:23 am
Moon
Do you consider taxes to be a vested interest? Of course being an illegal alien supporter it,s funny that you then bring up why you believe is why there is a low graduration rate. Instead of trying to keep illegals here why don’t you work to rid the City of them?
Many of us already volenteer with youth. Why don’t ask where the parents are? It’s called self responsibity.
Other then the grad rate there are other issues with the school system. When something is not working someone has to bee held responsible and that is Pope.
March 9, 2011 at 5:41 pm
How do you know that immigrant families dont re-enroll their students? What is that based on? I’ve never seen any study that would support such a statement. Basically you are saying that hispanics dont care about the education of their children which is false on its face. All parents all over the world care about the education of their children.
Manassas Park has the same demographic but manages to do a much more effective job in education. This has much less to do with demographics and much more to do with poor management, accountability, and transparency.
The only people who would defend the status quo are the ones getting fat at the public trough for doing next to nothing.
March 9, 2011 at 7:31 pm
BTW, thank you for pointing me to your blog. It’s an interesting one and I hope to post on it soon.
March 9, 2011 at 8:10 pm
Countrydoc,
Just an FYI, Moon is a former teacher.
March 9, 2011 at 8:57 pm
I figured that with his first post.
March 9, 2011 at 9:21 pm
Country,
Moon is a woman.
March 9, 2011 at 9:25 pm
Ah. My apologies.
March 10, 2011 at 9:24 am
Cindy,
Funny you should mention Mayfield, because I had my son enrolled in a private school in one of the buildings that was volunteered (for money) by the community to respond to the disaster. The result? I was paying for a private school education in a public school environment. Only in Manassas could people look you in the eye and honestly not understand the problem I might have with that.
As for why the roof collapsed at Mayfield, who might be responsible or involved in the poor construction issues that led to the collapse? Anybody related to the management of the schools?
Regarding the Hispanic population I know Hispanic families who move their kids around the area to the better schools, its good parenting in an age of chaos in the schools, I hope Moon isn’t suggesting that parents in the Hispanic community are incapable of good parenting, simple common sense? Racial stereotyping is such an ugly thing to see no matter which side of a controversy it comes from.
March 10, 2011 at 12:38 pm
I am a city resident who paid private tuition, so I understand, Doug. I just see things in a different way. The Mayfield public school students I’ve talked to gained a great deal from the experience last year. I hope your son and his fellow private students did as well. Not all the lessons carried into adulthood can be covered by a checkbook, or measured in a report card.
March 10, 2011 at 5:28 pm
Ya, I suppose learning about drugs, sex, etc, how teachers molest, etc, having less money spent on you than is spent on illegals, are all valuable life lessons that are missed by those students not attending Manassas Public schools in the last few years.
March 10, 2011 at 9:24 pm
Sadly, problems with drugs and STDs happen in private as well as public schools. Schools are microcosms of general society, which makes me even sadder for the hate, intolerance and just plain bullying that adults are modeling for our youth.
March 10, 2011 at 10:46 pm
COM, I don’t think you can speak for me. I don’t recall sending you my vita.
What is it exactly you want me to do to rid the city of its ‘illegals?’ Pointed hat? Sheets? Not my style. I also don’t live in the City. Your police chief might not like ‘my kind’ coming across the boundaries.
Didn’t you once say you wouldn’t have your children in City Schools? You are still running things down instead of offering positive suggestions. Think about helping with a homework club. You might actually enjoy it.
And Doug, I never said any such thing regarding Hispanic parents.
Its reassuring to see some things are consistent.
March 10, 2011 at 10:49 pm
Country doc, how they know kids aren’t re-enrolled is because OHS isn’t contacted to send a transcript. If the student is somewhere that doesn’t require a transcript, then OHS still takes the hit.
Did you see Firedancer’s explanation while you were visiting? She knows a great deal more about this issue than I do.
March 10, 2011 at 11:19 pm
Moon,
There you go, calling anyone who is against illegals as being a racist and a member of the KKK. Nice. You’ve not changed at all, you still look pretty stupid. Keep it up, we all need a good laugh from time to time.
Of course your name calling got in the way of common sense. I was just pointing out how you seem to know what the issue is, but don’t want to do anything about it. And, yes, please stay out of our City.
I’m already in a homework club. Why don’t you ask the parents of failing students why they are not helping out their own children? Or, why they are so disconected from their children, that others have to step in to help? Where is the personal responsibility on the part of the parents and the students? Liberal policies are why we are in the current situation, more of them are not going to help.
I’ve suggested many ideas on how to turn around the school system.
Cindy,
Of course those things happen in private schools, but you’d be hard pressed to find one school that has had as many issues as our High School has over the last few years.
We do have a serious break down in society going on. Just about every day now, there is a new video of kids and or adults fighting on buses, in restaurants, jumping counters, etc. The sad thing is it is just going to get worse. We are within thirty years of becoming a third World Nation.
March 11, 2011 at 10:46 am
COM,
Thirty years to 3rd World status? A guy tried to steal my steel garbage cans the other day when they were sitting out on the curb early in the morning still waiting for the garbage trucks to come by. As I opened my door to get the morning paper, the guy is standing there with one of my metal cans, with garbage still in it mind you, turning towards his van and says to me : “You no want can, see? Good for garden.” as he knocked on the side of the can. I responded: “See, good for garbage too. I’m not throwing the can out. Put it back.” Multiple hand gestures, head motions, and a goofy smile followed. Soon, COM, not today but soon in Manassas, confronted with that situation again, I might just grab the family, throw the keys to the house to the guy with the van, grab his keys and drive off. Hasta la vista, Manassas!
Moon,
Than you so much for the comic relief you provide, yet another Moon classic:
“To those like me who don’t live in the City, things don’t look so bad!”
March 11, 2011 at 10:39 pm
Why COM, I have not called you any names. I don’t think you are in any position to tell me to stay out of your city.
The City of Manassas has some good things going for it. MC has great festivals, council folks who listen to others, allow others to speak, and have their thumb on the pulse of the community. Many city folk work awfully hard to make it a better place. There are just always a few people who want to look at the glass being half empty rather than half full. I suppose that is just the human condition.
March 12, 2011 at 8:24 am
Moon,
Well, than what was the point of saying this? Pointed hat? Sheets? Not my style.
Of course I can’t tell you to stay out of the City. Yes, there are a lot of nice things about the City. However, all of the recent news stories of late, have not been about positive things, rather the focus has been on crimes committed by illegals and gangs. It’s just too bad there are too many people who in the face of facts, would rather just keep supporting and making excuses for illegals then doing the right thing.
Doug,
Yes, we might be closer then even I thought. You watch though, there will people who will just be overjoyed at that.