Obviously, I’m shocked and saddened by the violence in our community. I’ve been speaking with the City Manager and the Police Department and they are working the problem from their end. I know we’ll get an update tomorrow evening at the Council meeting. If you have questions or thoughts, post them…
November 21, 2010 at 7:33 pm
GTS strikes again, and this is yet another reason for the entire neighborhood to be knocked down and redeveloped. The only people the City is going to attract with this type of news is more criminals.
Channel 9 reported during their halftime news break the school system is bracing for possible additional violence tomorrow. Nice. Now, what people in their right mind are going to move here for the school system? A low graduation rate, sex in school, teachers being fired for sexual misconduct and now gang violence. And, some people can’t understand why we have our son in a private school.
Can I get a refund for all of my hard earned money that has gone to support this cess pool of a school system?
The lack of accountability on the part of the school “leadership” is horrible.
Lastly, I wonder how many of those involved are illegal?
November 21, 2010 at 10:17 pm
citizenofmanassas, real nice support for your community. You are a real piece of work. Why don’t you just pack up and move. A lot of people may agree with you, but this really isn’t the time to express your displeasure with illegals. A 15 year old child lost his life. Please get lost.
November 21, 2010 at 10:30 pm
MCR,
I would gladly leave if I could sell our house. However, thanks to the influx of illegals and a City now known more for crime than a good standard of living makes it hard to sell it.
I’m sorry, but enough is enough. Those of us that do not care to support crime and illegals have had enough of the PC City Council, the PC school board etc. We’ve been begging the City to do something and have said for years if we do not get rid of illegals and do something drastic this was going to be the outcome.
And as the motto for this blog spells out, the danger is not going far enough, and that’s exactly what happened with illegals here in the City.
Now we are stuck in a situation that is not going to get any better. But, people would rather just say I’m mean, rather than get their heads out of the ground and see what I and others have said is the truth. Which is once a City turns there is no turning back. Once a school system turns, there is no turning it around.
I’m sick and tired of the City being the brunt of negative news stories, that is tired directly to illegals, be it the “sign” or the number of crimes that can be tied to illegals.
It’s highly likely the 15 year old was a gang member, or there would not have such a quick response to his stabbing. So, while I’m not happy that a 15 year old is dead, we need to look at why he is.
November 21, 2010 at 10:42 pm
Sad for the senseless death.
Grateful for the Regional Gang Task Force & City Police and the work they do year ’round to track and deflect gang activity in the Northern Virginia region.
Here’s Chief Keen has posted on the city website:
What You Can Do
Community Members
Become involved in community organizations and coalitions that promote positive activities for youth
Be positive role models
Become educated about gangs, and crime in general, in the community
Seek and maintain a close relationship with the police officers who patrol your neighborhood
Become involved in your local Neighborhood Watch, or consider starting one if none exists
Report graffiti to the police department, and then work together to remove it after it has been documented by police officers
Parents
Educate yourself on the signs of gang activity
Maintain an open line of communication with your children
Be engaged in the lives of your children
Know who your children’s friends are
Insist on knowing where your children are going and what they are doing
Pay attention to behavioral changes such as the way they dress, school attendance and performance, and the company they keep
Pay attention to music / websites / wall posters
Trust your instincts; if you feel that your child is starting to become involved with gangs, follow-up on it and be curious
Business Owners / Retailers
Remove graffiti as soon as possible after you have reported it to the local police, and they indicate that you can remove it
Report any gang activity to your local police department
Enforce “No Trespass / Barment” notices
Consider the use of a surveillance system
Employ adequate lighting both inside and outside
As much as possible, make sure that your business and areas of your business complex are visible to the passing public
Work together with other nearby businesses to visibly display a sense of ownership and concern over what takes place in the immediate area
Start and enforce a “no gang colors” policy in your business
November 22, 2010 at 7:22 am
Where is the responsibility of the gang member in all of that? Once again it’s up to everyone else to change their lives, rather than the people who are committing the crimes.
Good luck getting any of the families or the gang members to adjust. This is the very reason good people move out of changing Cities, because they get fed up with having to adjust rather than the other way around.
A good old fashion gang sweep should be in order, just go round up gang members, pick them up for every possible crime, from jay walking to not using turn signals. Make it hard for them to live here in the City.
Otherwise we risk having the violence spreading.
November 22, 2010 at 9:45 am
Kid should have been raking up leaves for a few bucks.
(Ray B., There’s a very good idea in the issue you stirred up on other thread.)
COM,
I’m sympathetic to what you are saying but a massive gang sweep would not be a good idea. If they have not already done it,better for the local police and gang task force to share some of the intel they have with school officials and make sure known and suspected gang members are given a little bit more attention, and that attention should extend to their younger siblings in the elementary schools.
November 22, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Here’s Roanoke’s new initiative:
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/268318
November 22, 2010 at 3:40 pm
FYI:
http://www.cis.org/immigrantgangs
November 22, 2010 at 4:30 pm
Is the GTS MCPD Substation still active?
November 22, 2010 at 4:44 pm
Did something else happen this afternoon? I came home and there was a helicopter flying around above GTS/Wellington and was also stationary for a while.
Can we change our name to Compton or East L.A.? Nothing like coming home to what appears to be a war zone.
Doug,
The police can do intel once they do the round up. I don’t think it’s worth the risk to leave them on the “street” in order to collect intel.
November 22, 2010 at 4:48 pm
I just visited BLBV and he has a post up that military jets forced a plane down at the airport. Which might explain the helicopter.
November 22, 2010 at 6:08 pm
Good question, Steve. If it’s not active. It’s time to reactivate it. Just because a community “cleans up” their act for a while doesn’t mean it can’t remain open. PWCPD put one in at WestGate Apts. years ago when things were really bad there, but never closed when things got better. It was a good thing because it was only a matter of time before it was need in the area.
November 22, 2010 at 8:13 pm
COM,
1st, if you don’t have the intel in the first place you don’t launch that kind of operation. You get your people killed; you expose them to retaliation and targeting, simply more negatives than positives.
2nd, if you launch some large joint op with the federales, the chances that you are better off afterwards on a number of fronts is not that promising.
November 22, 2010 at 9:45 pm
Doug,
I don’t think you are given the police enough credit. It sounds like more of a resource issue than not knowing who is a gang member. However, anyway to get them out of the City is fine with me.
Andy,
We missed you at the City Council meeting.
November 23, 2010 at 7:24 am
Com,
No, it’s the opposite. From the MCPD that I know I would take a mass round up call as either a sign of frustration and failure or a distraction for something else they had going on, the guys I’ve met are extremely good.
But bottom line is that we won’t get rid of the gangs until we get rid of the ‘communities’ from which they sprang, I don’t see that happening, so it’s more a question of managing the trash than expecting the trash to disappear for good.
November 23, 2010 at 8:17 am
COM:
Good to see you at the meeting last night. I was watching on TV as I’ve got the creepin’ crud of some sort. I was laying on the couch yesterday and heard what could only be fighters. I figured that some guy in a cessna had screwed up. I’ve flown in this area before (even solo!) and complying with all of the rules and regs takes work but flying towards DC is a heck of a mistake. Would hate to be that pilot.
I’ll report back on the gang-related stuff when I’m feeling better and thinking a bit more clearly….
November 23, 2010 at 8:39 am
GTS has always been a section of our town I have felt needs a bit of study, and a focus for revitilization – especially that eye-sore of a strip mall. With those new condos on the corner by Prince William Street, that section is just off balance.
I have mentioned in a previous string about contacting GMU and see if the smart talent out there – both Professors and Students – could be tapped to do a study.
GTS would take two levels: one is the revitilization in terms of using MBA or MPA types; the other is over in the Administration of Justice side. Professor David Weisburd has completed a study about Hot Spots of Crime & Crime Prevention. My son Andy quotes him on a regular basis since he had Professor Weisburd, and that study provides logical and sound research – such as the answer is not just throw more police around, but targeted police action.
By the way, Professor Weisburd will be presenting the results of his study out at Hylton Center on February 8, 2011.
Much has been done – especially by Cindy Brookshire and our City Housing Manager Mickey Rhodes and the ladies in the Neighborhood Services Office – to focus on gettng the residents there to take pride in their neighborhood.
Let’s think about the second half of the effort: get some smart people in to look at what can be done to revitalize that area…whatever the options may be.
November 23, 2010 at 9:44 am
Doug,
Yes, getting rid of the families is a good thing too, and making it impossible for illegals and gangs to openly operate in the City. Obviously the police cannot be on every corner, etc.
Andy.
Hope you feel better soon.
Raymond,
Very good ideas.
November 23, 2010 at 9:48 am
Chief Keen’s report to the council last night said it all. Without the City’s buy in to the Northern Virginia Regional Task Force and the groundwork they do together year-round, you wouldn’t have seen the orchestration and wide ranging support of the past two days, with everything handled in a safe and professional manner. We go on about our business and their work continues.
I’m all for studying a situation. For example, if there’s young people hanging out at a dark corner, people cry out for a new street light or more police patrols. But if you study the situation, you might find that opening up a school gym for the young people to play basketball gets them off the street corner, is less expensive than police and has more advantages — a chance for adults to mentor the youth, exercise, safer traffic because they’re not in the road.
I don’t think it’s right to lump one group of anyone and scapegoat them, or presume to say all the problems are in their back yard. If you look at the crime statistics, it’s spread out. Even one murder is horrific, but we had two murders in the Weems area in the last several years. No one has condemned us.
I don’t think anyone should criticize GTS unless you are willing to go over to the community center today and say, “how can I help?”
November 23, 2010 at 10:59 am
Cindy,
No disrespect, but you make no sense. On one hand, you say a gym might make a difference. Then you tell people to visit the community center in GTS. There is also the b&G club less than a mile from GTS. There are plenty of school related clubs, and a huge outpouring of money and support to help GTS. Yet it has not helped one bit. The. gangs still seem to feel they can operate in the City.
How many more outlets do these kids need? And, do you really think gang members are concerned about having a gym to play in, or are they more interested in engaging in their criminal behavior?
You and other apologist for illegals and gangs need to push self responsibility and understand people are free to make choices. Everyone knows being in a gang is wrong, yet kids still make that choice. Instead of directing your anger at those that want to see the gangs gone, direct that anger at the gangs and help run them off.
Ask why the school system allows gang members to wear their “colors” in school.
There were three gangs identified in the most recent MJM article, all three are hispanic gangs. MS-13 is known to be made up of a large number of illegal aliens. So, it does make sense to say the majority of the gang members in those groups are hispanic, and many are illegal. Yes, crime is committed by everyone but the gang violence is pretty much limited to one group.
November 23, 2010 at 11:50 am
I don’t necessarily agree with Cindy but she is definitely not an “apologist for illegals and gangs” as you plainly assert. And I see you as completely full of it when you say that you mean no disrepect to her but then state your claptrap. You sir, are a fool. Please just state your view and then let others do so. You stay off the playing field and stay safely in the bleachers, sceaming for blood like those spectators in the Roman coliseum. And please stop whining. You have become a joke.
November 23, 2010 at 12:27 pm
@No Whiners!
I was with ya up to the exclamation point.
Cindy B is more than capable of defending herself.
COM makes some practical points that ring true. There are plenty of outlets for the kids to play. I would like to see more outlets for them to work. Some enterprising teens in Manassas, but there seems to be a big drop off after the little ones grow out of the lemonade and cool-aid stands
November 23, 2010 at 1:03 pm
While some of the posts are a bit vitriolic, I want to thank each of you for the discussions. As a resident of the city, I am very interested in this topic. This blog is the only place I have found where I can get up-to-date information and thought provoking discussion.
Practically speaking, each approach will only make fractional improvements to the problem. If we want to make a real impact, the efforts have to be coordinated between the police, local officials, community organizers, local businesses, and citizens.
This is a job that requires multiple tools. Many cities have implemented the Spergel model to do just that. Does anyone know if the city employs such a model?
http://www.comunidadesegura.org/en/node/31277
November 23, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Hey, Jason. I hadn’t heard of that one, I’ll take a look. The study I had in mind is SARA and it stands for Scanning, Analysis, Response and Assessment. It is a police tool for solving problems.
http://www.popcenter.org/about/?p=sara
Father Ramon is a one-man band running a program for youth and could use an hour of any strong role model’s time. How about accepting that challenge — give up an hour of blogging to spend it teaching personal responsibility to a youth?
November 23, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Father Ramon’s program is one of the ones listed here — if you don’t want to help this neighborhood, help another.
http://www.pwcgov.org/DocLibrary/pdf/005484.pdf
November 23, 2010 at 1:27 pm
J:
Our anti-gang efforts are focused on the Northern VA Gang Task Force. We supply a dedicated officer who works with them full time and other jurisdictions contribute some as well. I don’t know about that particular model but it looks a lot like the way the GTF works. They go where they are needed with little or no jurisdictional fuss.
There is also a preventative side to the GTF but I don’t know a heck of a lot about that…which is probably the way it needs to be…:)
November 23, 2010 at 1:30 pm
@SARA
Too bad they couldn’t come up with male acronym.
I didn’t know problem solving and women went together. (incoming)
November 23, 2010 at 4:21 pm
I am a bit torn on this issue. GTS seems to be the epicenter of much of the Gang-related activity, and regentrification, on its face, seems like a good approach. For years the City local churchs and other social welfare organizations have poured resources into this neighborhood, to what end? MCPD used to have a police substation there, and this did drive crime rates down. Symbolic actions such as “Gang Free Zones”do little to combat the problem.
My church recently opened an outreach center in GTS. I think this is a good thing, as it shifts some of the burden off of the City, and the taxpayers. My church also goes in to GTS to cut grass, remove graffiti, etc. But sometimes I think it is but a candle in all the darkness. What to do?
A gang sweep, or huge show of force, would have a positive, but temporary effect. Beating up on the Public schools really doesn’t accomplish anything. The law says the schools can’t turn students away, based on immigration status. We can get angry, light the torches and grab our pitchforks, march down to City Hall and yell “Rabble! Rabble!”. We can beat eachother up for proposing this or that. Do you think the gangbangers were watching the community access channel, or are reading the LTE’s saying “Yo ese’. Check this out. The people are pissed. We better chill, or we will all get expelled or arrested”? Does this really impact the gangs?
LEO’s have 287G. We have the NVGTF. The City has Kelo (I am not advocating massive emminent domain seizures). If this is an illegal immigration issue alone, we are screwed, unless and until we have a massive shift of will in DC.
I’m for studying the issue. I’m for taking action on whatever findings the study indicates. I’m for applying reasonable pressure on the MCPD, if it appears they are dismissive of the threat (which I don’t believe this to be the case). I’m for applying max pressure on the Criminal Justice system to see any gang-banger hammered into the ground at sentencing. Most of all REOPEN THE MCPD SUBSTATION IN GTS! Make that thing like Ft. Apache or Firebase Kandahar. Aggressively patrol the area and make life generally inconvenient for the thugs.
Yes, 2 gangmembers offing eachother is cause for concern, but this isn’t the first time this sort of thing has happened.
I’m not for “kneecapping” (as Andy puts it) other concerned citizens, because they favor one approach over another. The “enemy” is the gangs. Not “us”. Patton and Monty didn’t care for eachother, but they both knew the Germans were the enemy.
November 23, 2010 at 5:02 pm
That Steve T makes good sense, and not for the first time. What I like about him is that he talks softly and carries a big stick (meaning that he can likely handle himself if he has to). But notice that he doesn’t shout about it. I think I’d like to have a beer with him (wait, I did have a beer with him).
My sense, and just my sense, is that MCPD isn’t at all being dismissive of recent events. I would like to get an idea of what they think about reopening the center. Seems like a good idea to me but I’m not a police pro.
These gang bangers didn’t do themselves any favors this last weekend. I would think that they have caused us all to focus on them far more than we have been.
November 23, 2010 at 5:52 pm
Steve,
Schools can stop pouring so much money into the els classes. That would be a great start.
The people who spoke out against the City’s attempt to control overcrowding are very much the enemy. For the most part they did not live here, and were just spewing one excuse after another for why we should put up with overcrowding, illegals and the negative issues that come with both.
There are plenty of people who live in the City, who do not support any effort to either control illegals, gangs, or overcrowding. To me, that’s akin to if not out right supporting such activities to not just caring if the city goes to hell in a hand basket.
As you pointed out, the City, and many people have poured time, money etc into GTS over the years. Can anyone say it’s helped at all? As you pointed out this was not the first time for gang violence and it will not be the last.
All I know is that a small number of people living in the City are having a great deal of resources spent on them. The rest of us suffer. It’s time to put a stop to it.
November 24, 2010 at 9:42 am
COM,
I understand and share much of your frustration. Really, I do. Sometimes certain issues drive me to the point where I am eating Tums like they are sweet tarts.
I agree, the allocation of funds, within the schools is dispropotionately heavy in ESL, and almost exlcusively for Spanish speakers. No Koreans, Chinese, Portugese, etc., even though we do have a segment of these communities within the school system. I grew up in an immigrant community. My Brother-in-law was held back one year in 1st grade, because all he spoke was Canadian French. There was no ESL. All students were mainstreamed. Another friend, he spoke only Italian in the 1st grade. By the 3rd grade he was fluent in english, and was an honors student. Tutors were available, who were fluent in both the subjects they taught, and the language they taught them in. During my Senior year, I was a tutor to several spanish speaking 6th, 7th and 8th grade students. I got a language credit, the schools got a tutor. It would seem to me that we must have a segment of the Spanish speaking student body, with high enough grades and english fluency, who could fill this tutoring role.
I can also agree with you that certain elements of the pro-illegal crowd are hostile to our society, our culture, and our way of life. Mexicanos Sin Fronteras is a Marxist organization committed to the establishment of Aztlan, a seperate country on land that is part of the United States. Their local sub-group, Woodbridge Workers Party, is part of the whole. Folks like Nancy Lyall, John Steinbach, and others who claim US Citizenship, who advocate for this organization are, IMHO, agents of a hostile group, acting against the Constitution of the United States. You know how hard I worked to see this organizations efforts to establish sanctuary status in PWC/MC area. I was the operations chair for HSM. Groups like this should be opposed.
However, local social welfare organizations, such as Unity in the Community, while I disagree with much of their agenda, are not “the enemy” IMHO. They are people on the opposite side of the issue, misguided by a utopian sense of right & wrong, perhaps, but their motivations are based on modern liberal social policy, and modern liberal Christian beliefs. Should we debate them on-point? Yes! Should we confront their arguments, their sweeping generalities and pie-in-the-sky platitudes with facts that pick apart their arguments? Most certainly! In doing so, we drive the debate forward towards resolution. We present our case, they present theirs. We work to get our candidates elected, and they work for theirs.
But I have learned that while some on the “other side” of the political spectrum may have differing opinions from me, often there is much we can and do agree on. Some of these folks are Christians, as am I. I read the same Bible they read, and come away with a slightly different interpretation as they. Who’s to say I am right, and they are wrong? There are many Catholic priests who I might think are pro-illegal, but they can turn around an point to Christ’s command to help the poor and the wretched amongst us, regardless of their citizenship. My church has opened an outreach center in GTS. They distribute food, clothing, minister to the residents, hold ESL classes and provide other education. Is this wrong? If the Church body felt it was, they could stop it immediately. It is afterall their tithes and offerings that suppor the effort.
If you study any urban or suburban environment, you will always find that some areas are subsidizing others. Some areas require more resources than others. Families without children pay the same tax rates as those have children. There have always been richer and poorer. I’m not saying we should sit by and let our elected government drive through these neighborhoods throwing money out the window. But understand that the poorer among us have to live somewhere, and these places will often recieve more in public services than they pay in taxes. Short of seizing this private property and turning it over to a developer, what would you have Council do?
All I am saying is we can disagree, without becoming disagreeable. Ad Hominem attacks will accomplish little. Debating on point, presenting facts, supporting our local officials when they are doing what we feel is right, and respectfully applying pressure on them when we feel that what they are doing is wrong, IS in my experience, a recipe for success. Throwing grenades at the loyal opposition, while it feels good sometimes, really accomplishes little in the way of pushing the conservative agenda forward.
November 24, 2010 at 12:46 pm
Steve,
Thanks, I do agree with a lot of what you wrote.
However, when the City attempted to control overcrowding and illegals, outsiders came in and called the entire City racists, bigots, etc. The Washington Post waged a campaign of hate and lies about the City. They knew very well the City was not against hispanics or legal immigrants, but facts be damned. Ever notice how the other side always talks about us in terms of being against immigration rather than just illegal immigration? That’s because they are trying to win the PR war, and it’s up to us to not allow that.
Where were the people on the side defending the City from those outsiders? It is very likely had the City been able to control overcrowding, illegals would have left and many crimes that have happened since then, including these two, would not have happened.
The same thing happened to Prince William County, however, their leadership stood strong in the face of the attacks and the recent report from UVA proved them right. All of the claims from the other side have been discounted.
Ever notice how the other side always wants to spend more money? It’s always about more money and more resources and how more people should volunteer? That’s liberalism for you, it’s the train of thought that says “all we have to do to fix the problem is to spend more money”. It’s void of any self responsibility on the part of the trouble makers and shifts the burden of responsibility on everyone else.
We have a Boys and Girls club, the freedom center, ball fields and courts at every school in the City. We have more outdoor activities in our area to shake a stick at. We have public liberaies.
Now, you tell me how one more gym is going to make a difference.
I’m all for helping people that deserve it. I’m not for helping illegals who made the choice to break the law and come here illegally. They made their choices and they should have to live with them without having to burden us to pay for those mistakes. There are plenty of people in our City that truly deserve the help, and yet I bet many are getting short changed because of the amount of money being poured into GTS and illegals.
There is a reason bad areas stay bad, because people living in those areas have become dependent on others for hand outs, rather being taught self respect and self reliance. As a result, they do not keep their houses up or their neighborhoods, because they think there will always be someone else to do that for them.
Does Sumner lake need outside groups to come in to help clean up the neighborhood? Of course not, because for the most part the people living there know it’s up to them to keep their neighborhood nice.
We have tried the liberal approach to turning around GTS. I think we need to try another way, before the entire City is brought down.
November 24, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Just to follow up.
The City needs to adopt a tougher overcrowding law, they need to adopt whatt PWC did. We need to make it that gangs cannot operate in the City, through tough but fair policing policies.
Lastly, just because one is poor, does not mean they have to live every aspect of their lives that way.
November 24, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Seriously CoM, take your hate and contempt back to your own blog. We come here for rational discussion, not your vitriolic rants. You do more to damage the conservative purposes you supposedly support than most liberals could hope to do in a lifetime. Its truly a shame you can’t see that you give your opponents MORE ammunition and play into the caricature they promote of the “right wing loon”.
November 24, 2010 at 3:41 pm
CityCitizen is right.
For example I may or may not agree with Mr. Thomas but he’s a good man to speak with. I may learn something from him and he from me. However, when one sweats venom like COM, few want to get near, even those who may substantially agree with him.
There is no need to convert those who already agree with you, but there is a need to convert those who don’t. Alienation is not a good conversion approach.
I guess it comes down ro why we post. Sometimes it’s to figure things out. Othertimes it’s to debate, instruct, question or just take a stand. It’s also true that we post merely to express ourselves and our strong feelings. When we do the latter it’s probably best to do so in a way that is more respectful than pathological.
November 24, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Citycitizen,
The truth hurts. Instead of playing into the hand sof the liberals,What is your solution for the problem? Can you provide one example where “midnight” basketball helped to end gang violence? Or a City that is majority illegal that is a destination for families and the rich?
Are you just going to sit tight as more gang violence breaks out? Are you going to celebrate more resources being spent on illegals and gangs?
Even that very conservative City, Chicago, decided they had to redevelop areas that were homes to gangs and after many years and who knows how much money spent in an attempt to turn them around.
November 24, 2010 at 3:57 pm
COM:
Just so I’m clear, are you saying the City should buy GTS and redevelop it?
November 24, 2010 at 6:21 pm
Andy,
Not really, I’m just pointing out to citycitizen who only thinks conservatives want to run illegals and the poor out that after many years of trying liberal ideas to stop the gangs and violence, they knocked down housing projects.
I’m not the only one who has suggested that might be an idea to look into. A couple of posters on BVBL have come up with some ideas to look into.
I realize it costs money to do that, but how much money have we spent in trying to clean up GTS? I’m sure there are plenty of examples around the Country where Cities have embarked on such plans.
At some point the neighborhood will have reached it’s useful life, and it will face the wrecking ball due to the age of the homes.
I do seem to recall old warehouses along 28 close to 234, was that private property or did it belong to the City? Now, there are shops and stores.
November 24, 2010 at 6:46 pm
“The City needs to adopt a tougher overcrowding law, they need to adopt whatt PWC did.”
COM,
The City of Manassas has adopted the very same programs to deal with crimminal illegals as the county has. Both use 287G. Overcrowding ordinances are about the same as well. We have plenty of zoning ordinances, and it has been my experience that when notified, City zoning inspectors are pretty responsive. Do I wish they had the power to do more? Sometimes, but then I remember that I am generally against giving government additional power.
Overcrowding is a symptom of a nationwide failure of Federal immigration enforcement. Now we could spend days debating that issue and never address the issue at hand.
I say we give the MCPD a little time to investigate and come up with a plan. We should stay engaged, understand and know the real depth of the problem. We should listen to what the Chief’s plan is, and see if it has any measurable impact. We should work with and through council to ensure that the LEO prong of the response is responding appropriately. I also like Ray’s idea about approaching academia to study the issue, coming up with possible solutions, while keeping costs down. Perhaps we might want to also look at the efficacy of ESL vs. graduation rates while we are at it.
I understand when folks feel passionate about defending our society from obvious and not-so-obvious threats. I get ticked too when the press sensationalizes every “issue” that pops up in our fair City. They are looking for ratings and contraversy. Bread and Circuses for the masses. I also get ticked when outside groups want to come in and try ot push us around. Groups like MWB and the like. However, one group I am always mindful of is the ACLU. That is why a careful, measured approach is preferred. These leeches would love nothing more than for the City to act rashly, so they can sue us. The WP, or “Pravda on the Potomac” has an agenda. Let them rant and rave.
But I believe we need to try to be civil when dealing with fellow citizens. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but not their own facts. Civil debate is healthy. We can do this. But let’s not let outside groups influence the debate by attempting keep the community divided. Let folks say their piece. Hit them with facts and make them defend their positions, but resist the temptation to use vitriol.
I always know I have started to win the debate, when my opponent gets personal….If I were a shark, that’d be like scenting blood in the water. I know they have hit their final defensive line, when they attack me.
November 24, 2010 at 6:59 pm
City Citizen,
Andy does a fine job of keeping the blog civil. COM has as much right to express his opinion as anyone else, including you or I. Not an admonishment. Just pointing out that we do need to hear from all sides.
I understand where COM is coming from. He’s a taxpayer, and he’s concerned about the future of the City, our State, and our Country. I do believe that on the majority of issues, COM and I are on the same side, this one included.
Some time ago, I made a decision. I would no longer post anything anonymously or from behind the cover of a screen name. I quickly found that if I was willing to attach my name to a comment, I became very attentive as to the manner in which I presented my opinions. Did my politics change? Nope. Not at all. I also found that people are much less dismissive, if I am willing to stand by any comment I make. Civil and open debate. Gotta tell you…it’s refreshing.
November 24, 2010 at 8:02 pm
I object, your Honor, Steve keeps making too much sense!
November 24, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Rich,
I am looking forward to the next opportunity to hoist a pint with you, while engaging in civil discourse.
November 25, 2010 at 10:08 am
Overcrowding is really a direct result of poverty more than anything else. Perhaps CoM is focusing too much on ethnicity and not on poverty.
Hatred towards City Schools solves nothing and much of what he grouses about cannot be helped at the local level. The City has to go by the law. After all, CoM would be the very first person to remind us of Rule of Law.
Whatever solutions people come up with have to all be within the framework of what is legal. You can’t just snatch up homes owned by other people and level them.
November 25, 2010 at 10:29 pm
Moon,
No, overcrowding can be directly linked to illegal aliens. Though, I guess you’ve not heard of bunk houses where illegals live in shifts.
It’s not hatred toward schools either. It’s called being responsible with tax money.
Government, local, State and Federal seize private property all of the time. There is nothing illegal about it.
Steve,
I guess I should have made myself more clear, the City should adopt the rule of law ordinance. It’s been pretty helpful.
I agree we should let the police do their work, and then some.
I guess I’m doing a great job, because it seems more than a few posters are taking shots at me, but providing nothing in terms of ideas or solutions. At least I’m providing solutions, and dealing with facts.
November 26, 2010 at 9:57 am
Moon,
I have to agree with COM on the main root cause of overcrowding. When you have a large population possessing little education, and a work/immigration status that limits the type of labor they can do, you are going to have a poor population. These people live in over crowded conditions as a result. There are other groups who are at the lower end of the socio-economic scale, who do not live 30 to a house. The difference? immigration status.
MS-13 is primarily made up of illegal aliens. This is a fact that has been proven on many occasions. This same trend holds true for many gangs made up of those with similar ethnicity. Ten years ago, Fairfax had a problem with Asian gangs. Many of these gang-bangers were also found to be illegals.
I don’t think we will ever make the kind of progress we need to make, unless we can un-PC the discussion. Those who live in GTS tend to be lower income. Several houses are overcrowded with multiple families, single individuals, and combinations of legal/illegal extended family members. As is common in lower-income neighborhoods, we have a gang problem in GTS. The main gang is MS-13, and it’s affiliates. This is a latino gang. A large proportion of these gang members are in the US illegally, or are the children of illegals. Gang participation begins in youth, and our schools are one of the main recruiting grounds for new members. Gang rivalries often play out in schools. Because the majority of illegals in our area tend to be hispanic, many of these school-aged gangsters will be ESL students.
We can see a thatch of Social/economic/ethnic issues that all contribute to the problem at hand. The only way we can deal with this is to acknowledge each component, and hit each one with an appropriate response.
November 30, 2010 at 9:40 am
http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/wb/269213
We used a version of this to help GTS turn around
over a decade ago. We can learn from what we
did then and from what other communities, facing
many of the same challenges, are doing today.
November 30, 2010 at 10:11 pm
This is a full time issue, and while short term positive results are nice, the city needs to come up with a solution that will turn around GTS from here on out. Otherwise, we’ll be here ten years from now talking about the same issue, just as it was ten years ago.
December 1, 2010 at 5:16 pm
Here is an article about the Chicago housing project that was demolished.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40450463/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001
December 1, 2010 at 7:35 pm
COM,
There are 860 homes and an estimated
3,000 residents in GTS. The City Council doesn’t
have the legal authority or financial resources to
demo the entire community. Also note that the
townhomes are owned by private citizens –
GTS wasn’t built by nor is it owned by a public housing
authority.
Suggest you focus on more reasonable ideas.
December 2, 2010 at 10:12 pm
Steve,
Can you provide at any point, where community involvement helped to curb the violence for good?
How about the City Council growing a backbone telling outsiders to take a jump and getting tough on illegals? Drive them out, and keep them out.
How about getting tough on overcrowding.
Though, I suppose it’s reasonable to only expect a couple of murders ever couple of years, and a disproportionate use of social services, etc. from a minority of the City population.
Because the only way to end the problem is to get rid of GTS. Anything else IMO is at best a neglect of duty and at worst an indifference to the violence that plagues not only GTS but the violence that spills out into other parts of the City.
What has the Council done in the two weeks since the gang violence? What has the City Council done to make gangs not want to operate here in the City?
Sure, it’s easy to shoot down the concerns of the Citizens then it is to work on the issue at hand.
I sure hope that in the future, the City Council never ever even thinks about taking private property for the better good of the City.
It appears the City did not mind that private property was taken in order to build the Wellington/Nokesville overpass. So, what is the difference with that and GTS? Besides the amount of money that it would take to demo GTS?