There is a land use meeting today at 3:00. 2nd floor conference room. As you can see from the pic, there weren’t a lot of folks there.
UPDATE: There were ab0ut 6 people in attendance. The Land Use committee hasn’t finalized recommendations yet but is pursuing a two-pronged strategy:
1. Proceed with the study that will begin to establish a legislative and study record to create a basis for regulating adult-oriented enterprises. This study will be conducted by an outside expert who specializes on this stuff. It will then be reviewed by an outside Attorney with an appropriate background. This will then be
submitted to the City Attorney for final review.
2. Proceed on a simultaneous track to study and restrict, by traditional zoning, other classes of business that we do not want in the B-3 or B-3.5 (Old Town) area. There are various and sundry examples of this list, Cleveland and Baltimore were mentioned during the meeting, but we will need to decide on our own list and some justification for the entries therein. These zoning amendments will be prepared by an outside consultant as we don’t have much internal capacity to deal with this at the current time.
All of this is estimated to cost ~$50,000 – $70,000. Regulation ain’t cheap. We haven’t received timelines or much else from our consultants yet but a rough time estimate for all of this to be complete was early next year. We briefly kicked around some sort of stopgap ordinance but, upon further reflection, that didn’t seem like a great idea for several different reasons.
NONE OF THIS impacts the existing store.
I’ll post back when things firm up a bit. It’ll be several days at least.
September 17, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Andy,
Who are the consultants and how were they brought to the Council’s attention? Thank You.
September 17, 2010 at 10:11 pm
I’d like to see the people who want this study, take up a collection for it. I don’t. Hire the consultant after you’ve met your $$$ fundraising goal.
September 17, 2010 at 11:37 pm
It does seem a little silly to pay thousands of dollars to show that a porn shop in Old Town just might cost us some money.
Let’s see, invest and develop an area to attract one type of clientele and then license a business that will drive that clientele away. Then, pay $70,000 more to a consultant to tell us that was sure stupid, don’t do it again.
Wouldn’t it be cheaper to simply cut and paste existing regulations from other surrounding jurisdictions, which had the foresight to zone out porn, apply it to Old Town and simply exempt the one address? Grandfathering in a porn shop, hey, I wouldn’t be surprised if city staff came back at us and used that term to prove what a great job they’re doing keeping Manassas family friendly.
September 18, 2010 at 6:44 am
A record has to be developed that can stand up in court. If ending up in court is a possibility, then these types of challenges must be anticipated. There is no short cut. Short cuts cost more money in the long run. As to a cut and paste approach, the non-fire tested (ie non-court tested) ordinances of other jurisdictions are fairly irrelevant other than as a method of identifying potential starting points.
Well-begun is half-done. Without a proper foundation an ordinance will not stand when it is tested. And one must assume that an attorney with a specialty is zoning law will be hired to test it on one or more occasions.
Any approach that takes less than this into account is based on illusion and wishful thinking.
September 18, 2010 at 8:21 am
Doug:
Typically localities do just as you suggest. That’s the way it works: one locality comes up with an ordinance that passes legal muster and everyone copies it.
However, Rich is right. In cases where freedom of speech is involved, the Federal courts have not backed localities who did not do a study that allowed them to tailor their ordinance to their situation. Like it or hate it, these types of businesses enjoy 1st amendment protection even though obscenity does not.
Don’t howl at me: the case law is clear and if the Council doesn’t do the proper legwork, we’ll end up wasting hundreds of thousands in court and settlement costs….
September 18, 2010 at 8:22 am
I don’t know the name of the consultants just yet. They were selected by our attorney. When I find out more, I can post it.
September 18, 2010 at 11:21 am
Andy, thank you for your responses. I didn’t know I was howling, are you sure you aren’t confusing me with another poster?
I understand both your and Rich’s point quite well, and frankly, that’s why I raised the point. At this point, I am not so concerned with dealing with K&K as I am in putting some sort of stop gap ordinance to dissuade other similiar businesses from using K&K as a beachhead into Old Town.
As for K&K I would like the City to consider taking an aggressive stance towards the owners, with the understanding that the owners knew full well that they were introducing a business into a location that would do serious harm to the investment and businesses that have located in Old Town. This would allow businesses who choose , to piggyback on the city’s lead, and would also be a vehicle to recover any costs, such as expensive consultant reports.
Rich I understand the importance of such consultant reports if the City decides to go after K&K, what I’m not sure of is whether Mr. Bendall is up to the task of choosing or managing the consultants hired, but I’ll defer to the wisdom of the council on that issue.
I would also ask the City to discover what insurance the business and the owners of K&K have, and to dust off all the eminent domain files that they surely have in light of Manassas’ recent history.
Andy, thank you for letting me put my 2 cents, I was unable to attend the the land use meeting because, as your photo shows, it is almost impossible for people with jobs and families to adjust their schedules, for yet another zoning issue in Manassas, at such an inconvenient time as 3pm on a Friday . I’m sure Mr Way had very little leeway in scheduling the meeting, as I’m sure most citizens look at the picture and think work and picking up kids.
Manassas is very fortunate to have a councilman who engages his continuents in an open and forthright manner.
September 18, 2010 at 11:34 am
BTW, who is the owner of the K&K location?
September 18, 2010 at 1:45 pm
The city website links to the assessors online data base, which lists the owners. Just type in the street address. If you don’t know it, Google KK Temptations, not K&K.
If people keep bullying these two women small business owners, they may unintentionally turn them into folk heroes — if they’re not already. That will ensure the very success you are trying to prevent.
September 18, 2010 at 3:03 pm
Thank you Ms Brookshire.
Defending oneself is not bullying. How one defends oneself will determine if another potential attacker is foolish enough to make the same mistake. Often, if one makes it clear that one is prepared to defend oneself that is sufficient, in this case, it seems pretty clear that the citizens of Manassas were mugged by the negligence of its own employees.
Folk heroes? Well, if that happens, then those who snear at the ‘friendly family’ development theme of Old Town have an alternative development plan for Old Town, ‘porn friendly.’
BTW, I am not advocating for a search and destroy mission against these” two women small business owners” (how noble sounding), or an isolate and destroy mission against these two women, small business, porn shop owners, what I’m advocating is that the city be a little less reactive and a little bit more proactive on how to address this issue.
For those who advocate a live and let live response to this issue, please leave your names so that the parents of the first victim of the the store’s respectable clientele can add your name to the suit against the city.
September 18, 2010 at 8:21 pm
An interesting point undoubtedly made in good faith but a bit overdramatic. Using the above reasoning the city would be liable for the actions of drunk drivers who purchase a drink within the city.
Perhaps nothing causes as much death and destruction in the city, county and state than alcohol yet noone on this and other local blogs is seeking to embarrass or punish or out the owners of establishments that sell alcohol, whether they be bars or restaurants. Indeed, our governor is actually relying on liquor sales to increase state revenues.
Drunken drivers kill people everyday and few here call for abolishing liquor sales, yet one can infer that the first person to publicly brandish a vibrator upon leaving the new shop will be considered prima facie evidence for closing the new shop.
I just don’t see the balance but that’s just my view. On a macro level I do question why we are not equally or even more so against liquor sales within the city. I’m definitely not saying we should be, but many of the arguments against the new store would apply with even greater force against liquor establishments. I’m not in love with the location of the new store either but please let’s keep things in perspective.
September 18, 2010 at 10:03 pm
Speaking of alcohol….anybody in Old Town today?
The first annual Wine & Arts Festival was a bit more attended (me thinks) than expected. Lots of folks downtown, enjoying the wine & food samples. Some food places had to keep making more samples as they were running out of things; and the wine went down to samples only, as stock of some were depleted.
A successful little festival for a first run out – thank you HMI! Plus a nice balance to all the comments from some who said K&K may-will-etc etc etc ruin Old Town.
Andy, you ought to get the numbers from Debbie on this as an example of (1) the work you did under Manassas Next to get an Arts District and (2) as an example of the POSITIVE in all of this.
Let’s see what happens with the Fall Festival. Bet it will be well attended also….and grabbing the demographics of last year and this year from Debbie will also be another example of the positive.
September 18, 2010 at 10:07 pm
Andy, next up – a SUGGESTION:
I recommend y’all get the Minutes of the Friday meeting up on the website as quickly as possible.
I realize the SOP is they routinely get posted after approval, but given the nature of the issue, having the LUC minutes up in their draft form gets the word out to what transpired.
Not that your reporting on your blog is not GREAT!!!!
Just this one is too much of a hot-button not to get out information as quick as possible to the masses.
September 18, 2010 at 10:44 pm
A pedantic point, undoubtably also made in good faith, but we’ll see how the teachers and admin from nearby schools handle themselves in depositions concerning some unforeseen, impossible to imagine event from kids getting their hands on the wrong kind of toys from our new women owned, small business porn store in friendly family Old Town.
Unfortunately for Manassas, Rich, at least the lawyers I have worked for, with, and observed over the years are a lot more resourceful and prescient than you seem ready to anticipate.
September 19, 2010 at 12:13 pm
@Mr. Beverage,
The fact that more people showed up for free food and wine than some people may have expected is not necessarily an encouraging sign of happy days are here again. Were there a lot of children at the event? BTW, what is the rational behind mixing wine and art in a festival? Is the art that bad?
Before you start making the ludicrous claim that a good turn out at the W&A festival was some kind of people’s referendum on the opening of K&K Temptations, I suggest we wait until a few more people in Manassas are first informed of the opening and then have time to think about it. In the meantime, take it easy with the free samples.
September 19, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Mr. Brown, I have developed the philosophy that when there is a large pile of manure, fire up the BBQ cause somewhere is the cow that made all that and eating is going to be good. I apply that view when looking at bad situations – and that point of view is based on having served over two decades in the Army, rising through the Enlisted Ranks, across three wars, and being in places that I sometimes didn’t want to be.
I did not express the view of the W&A (in addition to the two other festivals bringing about 6000 in town yesterday, and the Hispanic Festival today with who knows yet how many) as a referendum – my view is there are many saying K&K even now will impact opening. People come into Old Town to specific locations for what they want to do, and many do not wander all of it – proof in the pudding were the number that reacted at the Special Council Meeting to having a gun shop in Old Town. Several were actually shocked, which I found amusing.
As for the schools – look back in the history of Manassas and about four years ago. Football players caught in sex acts in the gym. And the four return, lead us on to State Championship, and are called “hero”. And that in my mind was a worse situation than a kid caught with a DVD, magazine or sex toy. How do you explain to a child – and both of mine were in Osbourn at the time – you can do an act like that, get a few days/game suspension – and come right back to be a hero?
I respect your views as they lead to good debate and thinking, Like others though, I am trying to seek the balance in this manure pile…or at least get the BBQ ready.
September 20, 2010 at 11:46 am
I think $50,000 – $70,000 is well worth the investment if it saves us thousands of dollars in later legal fees. I expect our attorneys to take all the necessary precautions to be sure that the City operates in a just and right fashion. Pornography is permitted by law. We don’t like it. But we don’t have to accept it. The County has a proper ordinance for locating sexually oriented businesses, does it not? Most citizens in Manassas would like this to be a place we can be proud of — having another porn shop does not make most proud. BTW, how many of you know of families moving out of Manassas to Bristow and Gainesville? What has been the City’s population trend over the last decade — flat? I think it’s about time that we pay attention to these issues that affect society — porn shops, abortion clinic regulation, overcrowding, taking a tough stand against illegal alien criminals. The citizens expect action and support it.
September 20, 2010 at 12:25 pm
PS: I think you’d see a greater turnout if the Land Use meetings were held at 5:30 pm like most of the Finance Committee meetings.
September 20, 2010 at 12:48 pm
@Dave: “normal” Land Use meetings are at 5:30. This one was a “special” meeting due to the urgency surrounding the issue. The only time all 3 members of the committee could get together was 3:00 friday. Not exactly a popular time with all involved to be sure….:)
September 20, 2010 at 1:28 pm
“As for K&K I would like the City to consider taking an aggressive stance towards the owners, with the understanding that the owners knew full well that they were introducing a business into a location that would do serious harm to the investment and businesses that have located in Old Town.”
Doug…do you have proof to back that statement?
“For those who advocate a live and let live response to this issue, please leave your names so that the parents of the first victim of the the store’s respectable clientele can add your name to the suit against the city.”
So what you’re saying is anyone who uses anything from this store is a child molester…This proves you’re an idot!
September 20, 2010 at 3:55 pm
WSGFN said:
“So what you’re saying is anyone who uses anything from this store is a child molester…This proves you’re an idot!”
Dear fellow citizen(?)WSGFN,
No, what it means is that I will be facetious to emphasize a point and that I don’t assume the people I’m addressing are idiots.
As for being an “idot!”? What can I say?
September 20, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Andy,
I believe the approach laid out is the correct one. Remember Murphy’s 5th rule of combat 🙂
September 20, 2010 at 5:02 pm
@Doug,
Usually when one is trying to be amusing or not wanting to be taken seriously, they would put something in their writings as Mr. Thomas did….or a “ha ha” or “he he” or “LOL” etc etc…I didn’t seem to see that in ANY of your ramblings.
September 20, 2010 at 5:53 pm
@Mr. Beverage
I appreciate your admonishment to always try to look at the bright side of life. And for a lot of people in Manassas lighting up that barbecue may be just the ticket, but I think a lot of other people are getting tired of all the manure piles one has to avoid in Manassas.
Without even taking a stand as to what side is right or wrong about the moral questions raised by the store’s opening, I think we have to admit that what seemed to be at least a rough community consensus concerning what Old Town should be is now shattered.
The great sign saga no doubt played a big part in getting us to this point, but I sense that many people are simply getting tired of dealing with the manure, and while you may think you’re throwing steak on that there grill, I think a lot of people will tend to see it just as more BS.
As I have stated on another site, I would like to see some people held accountable and fired for this screw up, at a minium, I would like city council to review the quality of staff work they’re getting from top management and come back to the citizenry and declare their enthusiatic support for that management and then we can go from there.
p.s. football story – went against everything a boy should learn from football, pitiful.
September 20, 2010 at 5:57 pm
@WSGFN
I’ll make a note to myself, WSGFN prefers pictures 🙂
September 20, 2010 at 9:09 pm
@Mr. Brown
Have to agree with you on the point made that people see what has occured as just more BS, and now piled a little higher and deeper. In my little cul-de-sac of 9 houses, the general consenus is “this is just one more thing out of City Hall” (in a clean, family-friendly way to say what neighbors say). Most likely, this would be a view if a neighborhood canvas was done…with the result most folks will express a view, say a few colorful words, and then just go on. Activists are not exactly a predominate type across our City. People may be tired of it, but the vocal ones on this issue, like many other issue in the past in this City, are a minority.
Yes, I too see the vision of Old Town shot…a vision so clearly articulated in the 2002 Sector Plan for Old Town. I had mentioned to Andy what was needed is not only a Comp Plan, but a clear business plan (aka Action Plan in some circles) for how to move that vision forward. HMI does a good job of showcase events, and OTBA (depending on who you talk to) is either trying or a stumbling block. If a clear plan delineating exactly the targeted businesses, with it written in stone these are the only ones for the model, K&K may not have happened. And that plan could be structured in a way so someone does not yell “discrimination”.
Given the heat brought because of K&K, I like to believe – and expect elected leaders to do it as a resident of this City – there are pointed questions asked or being asked of the Staff; unfortunately, given nobody anticipated a K&K because of a vision, the processes presently in place were most likely followed.
The damage is done, and since you can’t crucify someone simply on “what the hell were they thinking??!!!??” even when following existing rules. The action now is put in place what is needed to avoid another instance, and also have in place what is needed so if someone does break a rule or procedure, then we get the wood & nails out.
Repairing the damage to the Old Town vision ranks right up there with restoring the faith and trust in leadership. First step, like you wrote, is a report back to the citizens. And words of action, not explanation is what should be there.
September 20, 2010 at 9:19 pm
@Dave Core
You mentioned the population shift to Bristow and Gainesville over the last decade. Interesting question and is actually related to the Ball Fields and the issues around the GMBL. One of the points made in that issue was there are about 800 kids of various ages playing in GMBL from across the County. Some come as far as from Woodbridge to play because of the Babe Ruth status of GMBL.
But the move out to the planned communites, as even Dave Cogar (GMBL President) expressed to me, was directly related to the “McMansion” craze – there is no place in Manassas to build them, so people went to where they were. So, folks grabbed the money and ran in the housing market craze. But kids stayed in GMBL.
Yes, some moved because of the social factors you listed…heard quite a few neighbors say that. But keep the McMansion factor in mind.
Your right on the spot though in regulation & enforcement – for those of us not in HOAs, we need the City to have the rules for which we can call and file complaints and have action taken. And make darn sure the complaint if valid is acted on.
September 21, 2010 at 6:44 am
@Mr. Beverage
Crucify? I’m not calling for crucifying anyone, I think our individual and collective ability to screw up got the right guy two thousand years ago, what I would like our City Council to “consider” is terminating for cause. Put it this way, how many times does a coach send in the same color blind quaterback who keeps throwing it to the other team? There comes a time when ya gotta to yank the guy, even if, he ‘s your own kid.