You will never read about the most important thing going on in Manassas in any newspaper. Which is another way of saying that the Education Forward committee met on Saturday morning. Dr. Pope presented a list of changes for our consideration. Here’s that list in its entireity:
1. Touch Time
a. Decrease class size to 18:1. Currently somewhere around 25:1
b. Mandate a 200 day school year which would be longest in state
2. Best Facilities
a. Replace old buildings/infrastructure
b. Upgrade to state of the art sciene labs, libraries, etc.
3. Dramatically alter programmatic structure
a. City wide k-8 school of choice (kind of like pennington)
b. City wide k-4 school of choice
c. K-12 International Baccalaureate Program
d. Day long pre-K for all 4 year olds
e. Every graduate earns an associate’s degree from NOVA
f. STEM Academy as a school within a school
4. Education technology leader in the state
a. Electronic textbooks
b. Notebooks/tablets for every student
c. Partner with NVTC
5. Increased Expectations
a. A city that expects success: Council, School Boards, Superintendent
b. Mandatory Uniforms
c. Parental involvement
Here are my thoughts on this list: First and foremost, it is precisely what we’ve been looking for: a list of options, some of which are a reach and some more modest. It is important to note that some of the items on the list, if selected, necessarily exlude other choices. You wouldn’t do 3(a) and 3(b) for instance. Many if not all of these options will require money. Some will require quite a lot of it.
Just as a for-example: Reducing the student-teacher ratio (which seems to be a fairly direct and well-understood route to increasing performance) would be very expensive. A quick back of the envelope calculation would seem to require we hire 40 teachers (I could be wildly wrong!). Assuming they make an average of $50k (which is likely low) that would be $2 million a year in salary. I don’t know what the schools overhead rate is but say it’s 30% and your loaded labor cost is $2.6 million. They’ll also need some place to teach. Say you can build the necessary facilities for $20 million. That’s $2 million a year in debt service. That’s $4.6 million a year but that number is a wild guess and could be off by 50%!. Assuming it’s $4.6, that’s 12.5 cents on the property tax rate if we find no other way to pay for it (renting space, etc). This is serious business.
The committee has asked Dr. Pope to do some rough order of magnitude costing and an idea of impact for each item. We also asked her to work with the City Manager in order to come up with a proposal for a unified communications strategy. We’ll meet in early December to review the new information and make some selections.
November 16, 2011 at 8:43 am
@Michelle (the first one)…. I understand what is happening in the schools now, but actually have watched it start to slide staring in 2006. Many of the issues today Ed and others address were happening then; the train has just derailed the tracks now instead of wobbling down the line.
My last child graduated OHS in 2007, took AP Courses and first year the tests were paid for by MCPS; the second year of them I paid for the tests since I saw the value in them as College Credit, and was a GMU Guest Scholar which proved to be a successful program. Of course, in the following school year, there was talk of killing the program.
I made a point to Council and on this blog once with regards to AP that if MCPS could not pay for them, MCPS should create a handout showing cost of exam vs. cost of three credit hours at the colleges/universities where most of the kids move on to. When the student gets a AP score of 4 or 5, the credit is accepted by most colleges, and then benefits by both not having to take certain courses, or serve as prerequisites to others. I paid for two of the four exams, and those two saved me in the end around $3000 or so and allowed him to have a December graduation vs. Spring – six months of expenses saved! But MCPS to my knowledge does not take this approach.
The GMU Guest Scholar Program, like the idea of allowing our 12th grade in particular to take NOVA CC courses, is a good step forward for students. Example: English SOL stops at 11th grade so why not in 12th, let the student attend NOVA CC to take English Comp I and Comp II that year – everyone ends up having to take them in college anyway, so get a leg up! Again, if MCPS does not pay for them, create the price sheet I mentioned above showing how the parent will win in the end. Plus, as written up and now even advertised, the Virginia Community Colleges are being advocated as a way in the tight economy to get the General Studies stuff out of the way. And maybe that is the idea behind Dr. Pope’s suggestion….
November 16, 2011 at 8:51 am
One other thing I did was tap into people I know about issues around education. A long-time friend (we grew up as fellow Marine Brats) holds a Ph.D. in Education and has done research for TAMU College Station both within Texas and Internationally. I sent Judy the MCPS State Report Card and she did a quick look at, offered several comments and observations on it, and I forwarded her comments to Andy as I saw value in them – rock solid observations by an expert. Given a lot of her research where in distressed School Districts in Texas with a high minority (especially Hispanic) population, most of her comments centered on our minority population and factors shown on the card.
November 16, 2011 at 9:47 am
Ray,
Great information, thanks for sharing. I’d like to get more information on how to reach you regarding disabilities? I continue to have challenges with our SpEd Dept and could use another perspective, off-line, of course!
November 16, 2011 at 12:28 pm
@Ray
As always thanks for the added background info. One of the reasons I check Andy’s site is due to your contributions here. So Andy you got a problem with me? Blame or Ban Ray. 🙂
This is good material for the counseling center to have on hand (also another way for seniors to contribute), but I still have a problem with focusing on expanding the attention of the community away from the task the High School should be focused on: Graduation with demonstrative cognitive capabilities.
All sorts of issues are raised once we start discussing college, graduate and post-graduate education, but that discussion seems to me more appropriate for the counseling department, than a major focus of a school system responsible for primary and secondary education. This is where we get into the problem of trying to do too many things without enough resources; this is how we get into this endless loop of needing more money for a never ending wish list.
Right off, the NOVA idea is a non-starter for let’s say a parent with a teenage daughter whom that parent would not want in a community college environment? My point here is not to deny the value of getting a leg up at the college level, it is to ask: why introduce new problems and issues into a system which is already struggling with its core mission?
November 16, 2011 at 12:30 pm
Michelle, since my phone number is published in multiple public places 703-335-6642 or email at rmbeverage@verizon. net that is also published in places. The joy of sitting on local Commission – and we publish the data. Happy to talk with you.
November 16, 2011 at 12:39 pm
Don’t ban Doug! Don’t Ban Doug! or Me for that matter! Sometimes between the two of us, we get some interesting things stirred up here!!!! And we don’t insult each other and stopped calling each other “Mister” so must be congenial between us 🙂
Doug, good counter points and nice re-centering on the issue at hand. This thread has drifted into “Education Future” at times getting away from “Education Present”. But since our illustrious host is centering on the wish list, and was seeking input, I pulled a couple of things from the past that worked well – and MCPS seems to have forgotten worked well to produce strong cognitive abilities in our graduates. To be honest, I don’t think the list of things does a dang thing to get to the core mission and start fixing issues prior to the next school year. “The Other Michelle” had a list I believe is more on target.
November 16, 2011 at 12:44 pm
I’m not going to ban u. I’ll just have the PD pick you up…:)
November 16, 2011 at 2:33 pm
@Ray,
See you in the pokie. And the little old lady at the polling station said Harrover was such a nice young boy. Now we have the era of Boss Andy.
November 16, 2011 at 3:51 pm
Thanks Ray.
Doug and Michele are on target with the core mission, in my opinion as well. We lack strength in the basic fundamentals in so many areas, for much of the population. There are a variety of reasons for that, so let’s not assume it’s everything that’s been mentioned here.
I would also like to state that it takes more Educational Genius to serve on a Board, like time and commitment. Although sometimes, you don’t even need the Educational Genius part…
November 16, 2011 at 3:53 pm
agreed. 95% of the battle is being there….
November 16, 2011 at 3:54 pm
WEBINAR ON QUALITY EDUCATION AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT
As a suggestion to Education Forward Committee and anyone interested
“Opportunity-Rich Schools and Sustainable Communities” — a webinar cosponsored by U.C. Berkeley’s Center for Cities and Schools, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, and the Urban Institute — will detail steps to align high-quality education with innovations in city and metropolitan planning and development.
The webinar ( takes place Thursday, December 1, from 2:00 to 3:00 ET. Topics include recommendations on coordinating school and development goals, the role of education in HUD programs, and effective joint use strategies. The What Works Collaborative, managed by the Urban Institute, issued a related policy report this spring.
November 16, 2011 at 3:55 pm
And for links out to the Urban Institute Report:
http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/412348-opportunity-rich-schools-sustainable-communities.pdf
for the webcast: https://cc.readytalk.com/cc/s/showReg?udc=r0jkzv40gprj
November 17, 2011 at 2:48 am
I’m back in a non-commenting phase right now, but I wanted to share a post with my thoughts on this list.
To be frank: I only agree with items 2A, 2B (these first two in time as part of a multi-year improvement plan only), 5A, and 5C. Anything else is too long-term and, in the words of an old professor, “don’t do diddy squat” about the problems in the schools. To me, they’re like whitewashing a old beat-up fence in a bad neighborhood, it may look pretty for a while but painting that fence didn’t address any of the neighborhoods real issues and it’s only a matter of time before that old fence comes down anyway. I’d personally tell Dr. Pope to scrap the list and come with something that directly addresses the schools’ core problems in the immediate future. Once the core issues are fixed, then it would be the time to look at fancy stuff like the things on this list. Until then, fix the core issues and don’t get your head stuck in the clouds dreaming of a future that won’t come because you’re not focusing enough on the present. My dad said all of this is different words I think.
Now let just go tough some items specialty and ask some questions which I don’t have the answers for:
– 1B: How exactly does this help? We were performing better in the past without changing the days in the school year. Why does she think increases the days will fix the problems? It seems to me if we found the keys to success that have been lost, this won’t be necessary.
-3A, 3B, and 3F: How will these so-called “schools within a school” help the MAJORITY of students? I believe these programs only help part of a student population while those not in these programs are stuck in the regular program which I don’t think would be helped by these things. So that actually ADDS to the problems we have know: one group of whiz kids in those super deluxe programs and the rest in the old, run down problem schools. Again, how exactly do these things help? People, fix the core problems first so everyone has a quality education and then do so things for the best of the best.
-3C and 3E: I agree completely with Doug Brown. We shouldn’t be forcing college into a system that isn’t performing up to par on the K-12 level. Why should we think the schools can teach college better then they can teach the school levels before that? The schools focus ought not be on everyone getting a college degree at the same time they get their high school degree. Instead, the schools ought to just continue the current programs (AP and etc) as Doug Brown also said. I see no reason to introduce any new programs. Also, from personal experience, I didn’t want a full college degree when I was at OHS. I only took AP courses in subjects that interested me and no others. I would not have been interested in either program. Also, to add to what Doug Brown said, this idea also wouldn’t fly for those students that wouldn’t want to go to NOVA ;). Oh and yes, they really wouldn’t help solve of the core issues as others have stated.
-4A, 4B, and 4C: These would do little to solve the schools problems. All would be a waste of money as far as I’m concerned and would be merely whitewash on that fence I wrote about either. Besides, I know the schools had issues with their TI-83s ending up at pawn shops, how many of those notebooks/tables would be sold or otherwise misused as well? Of course I must ask again, how exactly do these help?
-5B: OK, this one is just crazy. Do you really think uniforms will help fix the problems? Does the Army ACU suddenly make someone a better soldier? Does the blue uniform suddenly make someone a better cop? The answer to the last two is of course not. How you’re taught and what you do determine how good you know, not whether or not you’re in a uniform. Besides, most colleges don’t have uniforms which seems to conflict with the ideas of bringing college into the schools when you think about it. I must ask for one final time: How exactly does this help?
That’s it. I have now so that I don’t have to forever hold my peace. My final words are to challenge Dr. Pope. She’ll probably cite some fancy pants studies or case studies to support her ideas. However those of us that have studied and performed research know that the findings of studies are, except in rare cases, merely correlations which are never causations. If you look, you could probably find a number of counter studies to whatever studies she presents. Don’t think she’ll show the studies that don’t agree with her. Be like the Supreme Court: do you own research, read her augments, and ask questions to challenge them and to explain differences in what she is presenting and the things you found that don’t agree with her. Do not accept what she says at face value.
With that, I must return to the shadows to continue my potting. You may see not me around these parts again for awhile. Oh, and my apologizes to Doug Brown should he again find my writing too long. Each point by itself isn’t THAT long… its just that I have many points.
Have a great almost weekend everyone,
Andrew Beverage
November 17, 2011 at 7:27 am
Andrew,
Couple of comments on your post….
You missed. 1A. That is likely the most important one there. Nothing….and I mean NOTHING beats a smaller class.
Uniforms. My kids have them at Pennington. They make a difference. After having had my kids at schools without a uniform I do not want them to go back to an environment that doesn’t use them. I wish they would have had them in the Manassas city schools 35 years ago.
November 17, 2011 at 9:23 am
@Andrew
Good, pointed analysis, I didn’t think it was too long 🙂 And…you talked to your audience rather than down to, you learned well grasshopper.
November 17, 2011 at 9:59 am
“Touch Time”, Student Teacher Ratio, and Uniforms mean little. Kids can learn in a class of 25-30 “if” the class is organized and and in control. What happened to the term “quality over quantity? Quality is more than having a teachers license, a Masters or a PHD. A good teacher or administrator needs passion, enthusiasm, and support. Teaching should be viewed more as a vocation than an occupation.
@Bryan
Are you aware that if a uniform is mandated MCPS will have to pay for/ provide them? Sorry, I don’t want my tax money used for clothing students or hiring additional staff to manage the purchase, distribution and warehousing of clothes. I suspect that teacher support, parental involvment, student respect and student accountability have more to do with Pennington’s success than the wearing of a uniform.
November 17, 2011 at 11:12 am
@Bryan
I agree with 4K&D. A good teacher beats class size, just as a bad teacher can make 1 to 1 instruction cruel and unusual punishment. What’s the base complaint of a large class – too much for a teacher to handle, well the Manassas city classroom today has too much and too many things for the teacher to handle. Reduction in class size may be part of the solution but more than anything else my sense is that the teachers are overburdened by administrative tasks. And where do administrative tasks come from?
Also agree 4K&D on uniforms. Uniforms do not make a school successful, both as a student and a parent I’ve been there, the results can be very uneven. Enforcing a dress code is in my opinion the most direct and cost effective solution for MCPS. For families who have trouble clothing their children up to code, it seems that would be an ideal project for our church, community and business groups to discreetly and thoughfully step up to, a local clothing drive for local kids is something I’m sure Manassas could handle. Cindy?
November 17, 2011 at 11:27 am
Yes to business casual attire in the schools – khakis/jeans and polo shirts. My daughter wore “uniforms” and it helped her to focus on academics after leaving OHS in 9th grade. (Although administrators will tell you, there are a dozen ways to try to pimp a school uniform, until you’re busted by a teacher). We supported the voluntary uniforms at Weems way back when also.
What bothers me is when I go to shoot photos at the middle school or high school for an article — and then have to delete some of the best ones because of cleavage and short skirt issues (happened yesterday!).
The jeans should be the plain kind too – I saw an adult wearing jeans yesterday. I thought his pants were down in the back, but the jeans material was designed to look like dark print underwear and a belt, all hanging down!
Speaking of uniforms, the OHS band uniforms are decades old and thread-bare, and unfortunately, it shows, as several people commented recently, one during the Veterans Day Parade and “Welcome Home” event when seeing OHS next to a county HS band member. If anyone wants to play Santa and send in a check for a sleeve, pocket or hat toward new ones, they cost $400 each and there are 49 current band members (57 with color guard). Would be great if our one high school could have a complete newly outfitted marching band by the City’s 40th anniversary of incorporation in 2015. They’re submitting a video for a Pepsi Challenge grant, but that’s a long-shot with stiff competition.
November 17, 2011 at 11:59 am
one public high school
November 17, 2011 at 1:20 pm
@Cindy
I had no idea about the band uniforms. For a city that wants to improve it’s image and entice people to our schools where better to start? These kids perform and represent the City of Manassas outside the city limits. First impressions count. Just for the record, none of my kids are in band and none of them are HS age.
I’m not a fundraiser but do you think there is a company out there that would match dollar for dollar the amount the kids raise doing some sort of event?
November 17, 2011 at 9:11 pm
Best people to ask would be the Band Boosters:
http://www.manassas.k12.va.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=4908&
November 17, 2011 at 10:09 pm
The band should do car washes, bake sales, candy sales, and put out money jars in local businesses. When I was in high school the band raised money for a trip to Scotland with a bunch of fundraisers. Our town was about the same size too, and had only one high school.
November 17, 2011 at 11:07 pm
Check the website link above and go to “fundraising” in the left column. The youth and their families already fundraise all year, from parking cars during fair week, to car washes, citrus sale and wrapping presents at the mall during the holidays. But I think that just helps make the trips and others costs related to programming lower. Families still pay a lot. Uniforms must be one of those “let’s make do until next year” things.
Sorry, didn’t mean to sidetrack so far from the school uniform proposal. But it does point again to community pride in our schools, whether you have a child enrolled currently or not, and our neighborhoods. How many people drove past the traffic cone high in the tree at Weems ES for weeks and said, “oh, someone else will tell the school or call the city.” My husband finally took a pole and got it down.
November 18, 2011 at 10:11 am
Band Uniforms: agree with COM as once upon a time the Band Boosters used to even come into the neighborhoods seeking donations. One other idea: the School Foundation should take this up as a cause…in their Tax Year 2009 Return, it reflects a donation to OHS for the Chorus. They exist to be a key fundraising/fund disbursal entity for the MCPS System since as a nonprofit they can do more than a government entity.