I haven’t seen this reported anywhere else but when the Council selected our 5-year forecast the Council also directed the Mayor to appoint a committee to review the City’s involvement in the Prince William County Library system. The members of that committee are Mr. Wolfe, Mrs. Bass and Mr. Way.
The motivation behind this is that every year at budget time we take a look at what we pay the County for use of their libraries and, inevitably, somone will observe that it seems like a lot of money (which it is). Subsequently, someone else will observe that the City could never run a library for that amount of money. Another will observe that none of the libraryies we pay for are in the City (an interesting point). Some bickering will ensue and then we’ll move on. I’ve seen that script play out for the past 5 years so I made a motion that the Council direct the Mayor to appoint a committee to examine the matter. Could we really run a library for $1.3 million a year? Could it be bundled up with something else for a more effective whole? Who knows but they’ll find out.
For my part, I don’t want to live in a City without a library or access to a library. Given my druthers I’d like a library inside the City limits but we’ve done without for awhile. I also believe we should take a step back and see if we can’t creatively combine the library funds with some other function and create a greater whole. Who knows what will come out of it but it’s worth a look. No idea when they’ll meet yet.
October 21, 2011 at 10:52 am
The Prince William County Library System is a great system and I do not think that the City would be able to duplicate the services and resources that the PWC Library now offers. The library on Mathis Avenue is within easy access of all City residents. I would not mind paying a small user fee every year to offset some of the costs to the City for the library system. Manassas Park has kicked this idea around also about funding their own library but again, there is more to a library than just books on a shelf.
October 21, 2011 at 12:29 pm
@MAT: I agree that it’s a great system but it’s worth a review. $1.3 million a year w/o a library in the City is a lot of money. Maybe there’s an opportunity there. Either way, the commitee will work on it to see.
October 21, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Perhaps a partnership with a university?
October 21, 2011 at 5:13 pm
As much as I love and have haunted public libraries all my life, the needs of the public are changing. I would rather see money spent on libraries, computer labs and meeting facilities at each of the city public schools and keep them open in afternoons and evenings for public use as community learning (and meeting) centers. And yes, partnerships with local universities and colleges.
October 21, 2011 at 8:38 pm
AndyH: refer to Page 6 of the April 1976 Shared Services Agreement between PWC and the County. It states:
“SUPERVISORS AGREE TO PROVIDE LIBRARY SERVICES
TO THE CITIZENS OF THE ClTY ON THE SAME BASIS AS IT PROVIDES
SUCH SERVICES TO CITIZENS OF THE COUNTY AND COUNCIL AGREES
TO PAY FOR SUCH SERVICES ON A PER CAPITA LOCAL COSTS BASIS,”
For the readers, what the “per capita” means is the total population of the two Cities and PWC, and then what percentage of that total is our City. So the total Census 2010 population for the greater area is 454,096 and the City is 44,349 making for a rounded 9.8% applied to library costs as the City portion to pay.
October 21, 2011 at 8:40 pm
Continuting…if you break out of the libraries, you have to amend this agreement. Same issue was faced by Manassas Park when they were looking at doing something similar the other year….and their’s was even a stickier wicket since MP gave the land on Mathis Avenue for the Library.
I like Cindy’s idea, and I even floated one last year about if the City did decide on a library, build it as part of the Manassas Musuem where the collection of papers and books could be accessed by folks.
October 22, 2011 at 11:57 am
The agreement would not appear to need amendment. It has a cancellation clause if memory serves. I agree with all that PWC has a nice library system and they are building several new libraries that should also be nice. They are also not really near the City. Should we be paying capex for libraries that residents of Manassas are unlikely to use?
October 22, 2011 at 12:37 pm
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2011/05/the-future-0f-the-library.html
What is a public library for in 2011? 2016?
An “out-of-the-box” view.
–
October 22, 2011 at 4:38 pm
Yes, Steve!
October 24, 2011 at 2:22 pm
http://manassas.patch.com/articles/little-boy-with-a-big-heart-gains-national-attention
Off topic, but just found out that an NBC News segment about Timmy Tyrell
will air tonight on Channel 4 at 7.
A great story.
October 25, 2011 at 10:03 am
U all beta tink long and ard befour u all gyet red of thos buuk places!
October 25, 2011 at 10:23 am
Is this a re-invention of the wheel? Yes, the city could find a place to build or convert to a library. However, it comes with the concomitant costs of building/conversion, facility maintenance, utilities salary and pensions for the staff and the cost of stocking the shelves with books, cds, puzzles, dvds and other informational materials that a good library provides to its patrons. It is a shame that there is no branch directly in the City but the branch on Mathis or the one on Ashton Avenue are within a 15 minute trip from most points in the city. Any ideas where you would place a library in the City? Remember, if we convert an existing commercial structure than the City loses revenue from that property also.
October 25, 2011 at 10:47 am
Scott:
Agreed and all of those bits and pieces are what the Council debates every year. $1.3 million is a big budget line item for the City (double the Museum operating budget for instance). Is it that much of a priority? Should we be paying to build libraries in areas not frequented by our citizens? With all the branches they have why isn’t there one in the City?
This committee will take those things up and it won’t be a fast process. I agree with you that it’s a serious issue that deserves decent study, not a rush to judgement.
October 25, 2011 at 11:47 am
AndyH,
Per our conversation, I may not be able to make it to the meeting on Thursday but would like to be involved in this matter down the road. After almost 40 years as a contributor to the library system, the city may need to retread the wheel to fit its need within the current system.
October 25, 2011 at 11:55 am
I don’t know that I would go so far as to say “areas are not frequented by our citizens”. Some people are outside of the city limits quite often for various reasons.
October 25, 2011 at 2:45 pm
Why are there no branches in the City, you ask?
One has to remember the rebellion of 1975 – and that is the best way to call it given what I read of the history over at RELIC. There was much contention, consternation and finger-pointing leading to a long long bad attitude on both sides of the fence. And after the Library on Mathis got built, the point of one in the City became moot.
October 25, 2011 at 4:47 pm
Perhaps only apparently moot, until now.
October 25, 2011 at 10:50 pm
CB said:
“I would rather see money spent on libraries, computer labs and meeting facilities at each of the city public schools and keep them open in afternoons and evenings for public use as community learning (and meeting) centers.”
The city public schools aren’t doing too well right now in their primary mission. So let’s shovel some more missionary work their way?
Why don’t we just allow the staff, teachers, and students to focus on their missions in their facilities and keep outside distractions to a minimum?
October 26, 2011 at 12:24 am
Well said Doug. The last thing we need is more excuses as to why we are not progressing.
October 26, 2011 at 9:25 am
Keep in mind we are paying with the Library (as with all the items under the Shared Services Agreement) around 9% of both the DIRECT and the INDIRECT costs.
The Indirect Costs are most interesting when you run down the list:
Property & Misc. Insurance; PWC Unemplyoment Insurance Reserve; Office Administration; Office Telephones; Information Systems; Finance Administration; Professional Services; Management & Budget; County Executive; Public Information Office; County Attorney; Personnel; Records Management; Support Services; Property Management/Facilities; O&M Administration; Utilities & Rent; Housekeeping; Grounds & Facilities Maintenance; and Fleet Management.
Notice how many are various offices within the greater County Government. We are not just paying for a physical place with books, but all the little bits and pieces like in any government or business. So Andy’s point about paying for libraries not used by the City Residents extends to even paying for such things as a staff car at Independent Hill Library.
October 26, 2011 at 10:02 am
Even though we may be contributing to a car in Independent Hill, we do have access to all the items available from all branches. If we create an independent library system, our choices for reading material would be limited because of budget limitations on book purchases. Would we be able to use PWC libraries even on a interlibrary loan status as opposed to the intralibrary loan options currently available? The library has trucked hundreds of books over the years just for my reading pleasure from all the branches. Also, how would the loss of easy access to research materials affect the studentas in the Manassas School System? So paying into a system that has a car in Independent Hill with no other incumbent costs past our annual contribution i.e. pensions, insurance, fleet maintenance, etc.
Are we getting good value for our contribution? That is worth a review. Can the City create a library, stock it and staff it efficiently? I do not doubt that but at what cost? Any estimate should be looked at with a cautious eye since cost seems to balloon with each good intention.
October 26, 2011 at 10:12 am
Raymond,
So what? Another way of looking at would be we’re getting 90% off on a Library system that another jurisdiction is responsible for running and updating. I see city residents in the PWC Libraries all the time. I really would like to see a little bit more data about “libraries not used by the City Residents,” before we go into the lala land of envisioning the library of the 29th Century or sending another 1.6 million to the school system whether they want it or not.
October 26, 2011 at 10:19 am
Doug: I would urge you to be courteous to others on here. If not, your posts will just be deleted.
All: remember that this is as much a discussion about balance as anything else. Maybe we are getting a library system at 90% off but at $1.3 million a year is it something we’re just spending too much money on? Recall, we closed our Parks and Rec department. We’re probably the only jurisdiciton in the area that doesn’t have one. You might turn your nose up at that and make snide remarks but the cold, hard fact is that if you want a healthy mix of socio-economic levels in the City, you have to have the services and facilities available that those folks are looking for. That includes schools, libraries and everything else.
October 26, 2011 at 11:50 am
Apologies to those offended, but I find it extremely frustrating to read a proposal to roll the library system into the public school system. One of the reasons I threw up my hands with the public school system here in Manassas several years ago before giving it another look was what I saw was a mind boggling waste of resources at the time, e.g., Haydon’s new library in its renovation project. A new library for a K-4 school? K-4 simply don’t need libraries. The majority of what they added at Haydon was needed but a library? Does Captain Underpants and shelfing really need to be budgeted into a 1.7 million, I think it was, renovation?
Here’s the start of an idea: use the PWC library system as a part of a rotating field trip destination for the K-4s, redesign the librarian position and space in the K-4s to help address the overcrowding issue in the classrooms, I bet we could even come up with some ideas to sell it to the personnel who would be effected. ….to be continued?
October 26, 2011 at 1:38 pm
@Doug: I don’t think it’s a particularly good idea to have the general public using school libraries. Facility issues aside, that’s got security nightmare written all over it.
October 26, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Andy,
I agree, in fact, I just posted the same thought over on BLBV after someone referenced this discussion.
October 26, 2011 at 2:55 pm
I would like to comment on the socio-economic levels:
It seems as though, thorough action or inaction, we are attracting either the very high or the very low (again, referencing the schools in particular).
Libraries are important! However, I do not think families or residents in general, put libraries in the same category as schools? I don’t ever recall a realtor having a client ask about access to libraries or hearing that a family left the city because we didn’t have one? Having a library or not isn’t going to threaten my neighborhood or our safety (in my humble opinion).
October 26, 2011 at 3:06 pm
I agree with most of that…
October 26, 2011 at 4:27 pm
Doug, just posted as an information and/or education point. There may be some who read and think we are only paying for the Library Buildings & Staff, not aware the bill includes funding a lot more departments through the Indirects. The Indirects for maintaining building, grounds, computers, telephone – those things that keep the Libraries running are not an issue with me. But paying for County Attorney, County Exec, the Unemployment Insurance Reserve (not included with paying for Employee Salary)….these items are something the Council should be taking a hard look at.
October 26, 2011 at 11:08 pm
Raymond,
If you are talking about going thru the PWC Library budget and knit-picking away at indirects that are being passed along to us, okay maybe it would be worth it, maybe not. Are there reciprocal relationships in other areas in which we do the same thing to them? I don’t know, I’m just wondering if it’s worth getting involved in budget snipping with PWC. If we’re always the one getting tagged with the indirects you’re concerned about then maybe it is.
As to the Libraries I would like to know much more about PWC current and future development plans before we pulled the plug on our contribution. I have some idea about the demographics of the residents who use the libraries and people might start cringing a little when they realize who they are impacting. Furthermore, there are all sorts of other peripheral issues which may make the defunding more costly in the long term.
I have no problem thinking outside the traditional library setting, and I’ve probably spent more time working and thinking about it than most people in Manassas, however, before we throw out our investment in the current PWC system, we better take a thorough inventory of what we would be throwing away, both its current services and where it might be going.
@Tenacity,
If you are going to compare public schools and public libraries, consider this: what’s the difference between the people who are pursuing knowledge and answers in the two settings? In one, technically/legally, they have to be there and in the other they choose to be there. Think about that, when you want to contemplate what sort of community you want to live in.
October 27, 2011 at 8:33 am
Doug, to my knowledge from back when I asked the question in 2008, the City passes indirects to PWC with regards to Water and the Airport. The water was detailed heavily in the Shared Services Agreement, and the Airport (at least to me) is the amusing one since back in the Seventies, PWC did not see it as much of an economic engine as it is today. There is a difference as the City’s billing is not as broad as the County. Part of looking at the expense should include the “why” we are billed for departments such as the County Exec and Attorney for example. As for current and future plans:
The PWC Library Trustees Board posts their Agendas and MP3 recordings of their meetings at: http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=040010001040001546
Currently, there is the Potomac Library and Montclair Library projects going on. The last push was “Buy A Brick” for the Potomac Plaza and at the recent fundraiser, there was (as I was told) over $1million dollars raised for the bricks. The Library Foundation website has the plans for Potomac at:
http://www.pwcgov.org/library/foundation/key_projects.htm
When on the Foundation link, click over to “Bond Referendum” on the left hand menu and you will see the plan for the Gainesville Library. Keep in mind when it comes to the County Bonds, the folks in PWC vote for that – we don’t get a vote as City residents. But in the end, we pay toward them.
October 27, 2011 at 10:06 am
Thanks Raymond,
Interesting, especially the Bond Ref kicker.
As for the MP3 recodings of board meetings, I’ll keep the link handy for when my insomnia kicks in. I do prefer readable formats, thanks.
October 27, 2011 at 10:24 am
And as we pay to them, we also get the use and benefits of all branches directly (visiting) or indirectly (intralibrary loans). Seems the biggest objection is not having a branch within the boundaries of the city. If we decide to go on our way alone or make a deal with the county for a branch, where would we place it? Lot of good arguements could be made to place it on the museum grounds. Some people may want it to be over in the Wellington/Clover Hill area. What would be the time frame to build, staff and stock and at what cost?
October 27, 2011 at 11:39 am
“Our Carnegie Library – It hasn’t been many years ago since
through the efforts of some of our public-spirited citizens
Manassas was given a thousand dollars from the Carnegie Fund
to establish a library in town for the citizens and school children
of this community; yet we venture to say that a large portion
of the citizens of Manassas have almost forgotten the very existence
of such an institution.
Now the real truth of the matter is that for some time the library has
not been used, generally speaking, by the town at all, and as a
consequence has fallen gradually into innocuous desuetude.
We are not complacent in having to acknowledge this fact, for a town
library should be one of the most decidedly alive of any of its possessions.”
Manassas Democrat (1-28-1910)
More misc. history:
– The land where Nelson Park is now located was originally given
to the Town of Manassas as a proposed library site.
– There apparently was a library run by volunteers in Manassas
in the 1940’s since every few months the local papers
would give the titles of a half dozen new books either given or
purchased by the organization. Financial donors included the
Town of Manassas – $50.00 per year.
October 27, 2011 at 12:32 pm
“Seems the biggest objection is not having a branch within the boundaries of the city.”
I’d make a bet that a large proportion of City residents that visit the Mathis Ave branch don’t even know it’s NOT in the City….
October 27, 2011 at 1:45 pm
Think the key questions for most of us are “Do Manassas citizens get
the best value for their investment? Could we do better and how?”
The city has looked at this about every five years for the last twenty years.
Will new technology, needs and cost bring us to another conclusion this time?
( Shared services cost billed by the county exploded 8-10 years ago
but have been more reasonable recently.)
October 27, 2011 at 5:32 pm
Really! For less than 30 dollars per resident, you get a world class library with out the headaches of running it!
Just take a look at your schools! I think you would be in the same predicament.
Maybe you should consider letting the county run your schools! That would save you about 4K per child!
October 27, 2011 at 10:49 pm
Steve,
You have a good point: Do Manassas Citizens get the best value? But I add one more caveat: how many use the libraries regularly? I only use it for RELIC over at Bull Run for history, but the last time I did that was two years ago and not set foot in since. So maybe this is a question the Committee should think on.
And Shared Services did blow up 10 years ago with the Census since, in between those 10 years, the population estimate is based on the UVA Weldon Cooper Center for Public Policy. Of course, with the 2010 Census now on the street with full demographic breakout, and our fair City growing from 35,135 to 37, 821 (around an 8% increase), the next bill will be slightly larger across the board. Example: we had a 51% increase in the total residents ages 60 and over which is going to impact what we pay toward Aging Services and Programs mandated by the Older Americans Act and agreed to under a 1977 agreement.
October 27, 2011 at 10:52 pm
Andy, I reread the preamble into this discussion and your point about “not posted anywhere else”. As you and I have spoken before, if not here, most the time the hot ticket items would not be known because of the process from when a meeting is held to when the Council (for that matter, us residents) see a set of published Minutes.
The meeting you reference on the 5-Year Forecast was on October 12th, and Minutes not publicly available online until this week. I realize you also use this blog as a way to gather thoughts and opinions; that said, thanks for your efforts in doing so!
October 27, 2011 at 10:57 pm
@Doug, your welcome. Always try to pull out the little things most not aware of and jot them in the blog.
October 28, 2011 at 6:07 am
Ray: It disappoints me that the papers don’t cover this stuff. It hampers the process in a big big way.
October 28, 2011 at 7:19 am
Raymond,
It’s interesting, but I’m not sure how relevant concerning the value/the decision of staying in the PWC library county system. Yes, it appears they’re nickle and diming us on items, but that seems that should be made a much bigger issue in a broader public and regional debate which should be taking place. I think that is what AndyH is alluding to when he says it dissapoints him concerning how the local paper fails to frame or cover important local issues. In that sense, I think you are perhaps raising a much larger issue. Perhaps, Andy and the city can use the Library arrangement as a vehichle to persuade PWC to rethink some of their creative bookkeeping or at least get a better deal in regard to the library budget? Who knows? But the issue’s place in the pro or con of remaining in the library system, I think would be a secondary issue.
October 29, 2011 at 9:22 am
Good point on using the library as the vehicle to relooking at the agreements – as I found when prodding folks for documents, there is not a very good system of keeping historical documents. The deals struck in 1976 have never really been looked at in terms of the greater area & regional growth…take the planned Gainesville Library for instance. Plus, with the library out at GMU-Prince William as part of their greater campus library system, is one now within the region some folks use.
Agree though what we pay for each year is a secondary issue – the focus should be to what value the full system has to City residents. Of course, tucked in to the various discussions here is also what value the cost of the libraries within the MCPS has. After K-5, I recall the other ones being used as part of classes to do research for a paper. But given access to online sources, it then may mean looking at even refocusing or revising library use across the whole spectrum. Of course, the American Library Association say the same things about the future.