I read most of the local blogs. Some I read the posts and every comment, some just the posts. Moonhowling has an interesting post up on the City Council and the situation with the adult store and the abortion protests. Even if I don’t agree with everything she has to say, I do appreciate the thoughtfulness of the post. People don’t write the Council or call just to report that everything is ok…:) Greg has an open thread on the protest as well. The JM has an article with a lot of posts.
I suppose that fundamentally I don’t see anything wrong with the nuts and bolts of what has happened in the past few weeks. Some people who should have known better sent out emails and said things that they probably shouldn’t have but it happens. This type of public discourse is how communities figure these things out. It ain’t all pretty. I’ll be the first to admit that it is pretty tough on the back to sit through a 5 hour citizens time but it is all part of it. This is how it works. Nobody was jeering and most were unfailingly polite. I would say that it would be tremendously difficult to do one of those public meetings were you had a divided crowd. Some of the 287g meetings we had early on had relatively divided crowds but it’s up to the Mayor to keep control of the meeting. Participants must be civil.
In our case, the City, after a marathon public meeting, shuttled the matter to the Land Use Committee. Mr. Way chaired a great meeting and we came up with a credible plan to proceed. I think that it is fair to say that, even though few of the present Council members were onboard when the “Family” ordinance was passed, we learned from having to clean up that mess. No laws were passed in haste and a deliberate course of action was established.
This is the way it’s supposed to work: The citizens identify something that they want addressed, the Council takes it up and figures out what, if anything, can be done. Then we get about it. Often, the initial phase of citizen comment and government response can be a bit messy but that’s the nature of the beast. Citizens don’t usually show up to speak unless they are passionate about something. This can lead to some difficult things being said but these too will settle over a short time.
What really matters the most in these trying situations is that early on in the process – when the heat is really on – that the Council stays cool and takes careful action – listen to the citizens and take considered action. Above all, the Council has the resolve to do what the law demands – even if it is unpopular.
PS – After reflecting on this overnight, I’d also say that part of what has made the recent dialog successful is the willingness of the citizens to listen and educate themselves (often on their own!). They have found, as I have found over the past 5 years, that you aren’t always happy with what you find out but you need to know. It’s not enough to simply shout at the rain….I thank them all for that.
BTW – I’m currently reading a book written by the guy who prosecuted an obscenity case in Staunton. It’s enlightening, frightening and encouraging often all at once but above all it shows that it is possible.
October 6, 2010 at 4:25 pm
Mrs. Stevens,
Several attempts were made to contact Ms Skokan via her website., no reply was received. I am not sure if this was a technical issue, intentional, possibly at the direction of her attorney, or some other reason.
October 6, 2010 at 5:23 pm
Moon-howler, several of the posts above mine, including yours, were not visible to me when I wrote my post. I will rephrase that your comment is the first time I have seen anyone in favor of the shop acknowledge the videos and speak to a person’s concern to them. I for one did not assume the video in question was pornography. I googled it, and the only hits that came up were on porn sites that I am not willing to enter.
I don’t understand why there is so much expectation placed on private citizens to dig so deeply into this shop. In my opinion, if the shop owners want people to shop there and to appreciate its presence in town, it is in their best interest to make clear their intentions. There were objectionable things on the website. It seems to me, it was the obligation of the shop owner to address these concerns openly and explain that in light of the concerns she had reconsidered. That would have been excellent positive publicity. Instead, she quietly took them down and then expressed shock at the objection to her simple boutique, acting as if the objections were to the NEW website and not the old one. That is not only dishonest but also dismissive, perhaps deliberately so.
The funny thing is, when this first came out, I simply rolled my eyes and thought “that’ll never fly in Manassas.” What has bothered me so much is that this issue has yet again brought about the divisiveness and dismissiveness and the refusal to even consider another person’s point of view that has come to symbolize political and social discourse in Manassas and Prince William County. It is exhausting having to wade through all of the petty jabs all of the time before we can even begin to get to the heart of the matter. It’s no wonder so many people don’t even try.
October 6, 2010 at 6:10 pm
I had no problem reaching Ms. Skokan. She answered me immediately.
Andy, I am a county resident. Just wanted you to know before including me. If you change your mind, I will understand. Otherwise, thank you.
Steve, I grew up with brothers and have a husband and sons. I realize that there is a difference. My first intro to real porn was when I first came to Manassas and I got invited, as a couple, over to someone house on Sunday to watch the ‘skins. I ASSUMED I was going to the Redskins. I was wrong. Now, having said that…
I am not going to try to defend what I would consider porn. I see no defense of it. However, what I consider porn might not be what you consider porn and I don’t think I have any business being the moral police over what you watch. If a video is being shown in the window of a store locally, then I would be voicing an objection. I have done exactly that in music stores. I don’t want to have to hear about someone raping someones wife and killing their dog in some trash gangsta recording.
So back to where do we draw the line.
I am not sure. I will not judge Ms. Skokan or her store by a few movie titles on a website, even if the titles I have been told are very objectionable to me personally (and a couple were very much so.) I won’t judge her by those titles any more than I would judge Gamestop for having a few adult rated video arcade games or Prosperos Books for having some books I might think are pornography.
I think that is how we need to evaluate. Is the arcade all X rated video games? Is the book store all books that contain sexually explicit content? Is the boutique only dealing with XXX rated movies?
Otherwise, if the general public isn’t exposed to things that some of us might find objectionable because of explicit sexual content, violence, or other things that offend our sensibilities, then who really cares.
October 6, 2010 at 8:44 pm
Moonhowler,
That is just too funny. OMG! I can’t imagine what in the world I would have done! LMBO
October 6, 2010 at 8:46 pm
Moon-howler,
I can understand your point of view, and the lengths you will go to to be non-judgemental. But, as Mr. Bendall explained, it is up to the individual community to decide what is obscene, and obscenity is not protected speech. We may have different thresholds as to what would offend us, but if the community is to decide these things, then there must be a debate. Messy, yes, but necessary. When we get into the circular argument that is “what is pornography” I can’t help but remember what I learned as a young Marine Lieutennant, going through artillery classes, learning to be a Forward Observer, the guy who calls in artillery fire. The instructor told us, “If you aim at nothing, you will hit nothing…every single time.”
October 6, 2010 at 11:26 pm
To all:
Are there not guidelines as to how far a community can go in either direction?
I believe my original eyebrow raising came over the different standards for different neighborhoods.
October 7, 2010 at 7:50 am
I think the difference, Moon, is that this is the historic district, the heart of the city (unlike the county’s proposed town centers, which are strip malls turned inward).
But if the historic districts of Alexandria, VA and Portland, OR have shops like these, without any negative secondary impacts, why not Manassas?
October 7, 2010 at 8:03 am
Cindy:
I don’t think comparing Old Town Alexandria or Portland to OT Manassas is in any way legit for 2 reasons.
1. Both Alexandria and Portland are large enough that you could add pretty much whatever kind of shop you wanted and it would be absorbed due to their size. There are what, 20? retail spots in OT Manassas?
2. This is a Manassas issue. Imposing the values of Alexandria or Portland on our politics just isn’t valid. Portland has strip clubs in their central biz district. Should we have them? I think not.
October 7, 2010 at 8:49 am
The folks of Mitchell, Nebraska, where my parents lived, population less than 2,000, has a bowling alley, a post office, the Nile theater and four liquor stores. Values are objective.
October 7, 2010 at 8:53 am
My point exactly. It’s a “Manassas decision”. Saying that it’s “ok in Portland” doesn’t strike me as really relevant….
October 7, 2010 at 8:55 am
Moon,
You ask if there are any guidelines…and the first place to start is with our City Ordinances down in Chapter 78, Division 3, Section 78-251 et.al. These have set the “community standards”.
These, naturally, parallel the Virgina Code. In the other posting here on Andy’s Fence, I addressed the limitations of Government Morality. But even in that, there are guidelines, hence the very nice plan by the City Council to research and then rewrite/make new Ordinances as needed. This review will enable defining of the range for legal pornography. Control of the zoning is already clear in what a local government can do as set in another Supreme Court case, and is also covered under Virigina Code.
An example of a guideline out there and locally enforced occured in Manassas several years ago with MVC. MVC was selling videos of pregnant women engaged in various sexual acts which were determined to exceed the bounds of decency and morality – these were not any form of educational video to guide a couple to have safe intercourse during pregnancy and were, literally, obscene. Action was taken and MVC removed the material.
October 7, 2010 at 11:02 am
Andy and Mr. Beverage,
Thanks for helping to clarify the argument I have been trying to make. The community, in this case Manassas City, determines what is obscene. There must be a lawful standard. Some may think the standard too low, others too high, but there must be a point of reference from which to measure. There was another case involving MVC, where they were selling “golden showers” videos in all of their stores. These were determined to be obscene by local standards, by the local community standards board and again the offending material removed. Whether or not MVC pulled these from their other locations, I do not know, but the action against MVC was local in nature.
As Mr. Bendall pointed out, while the city cannot institute a complete ban on SOB’s, nor can they kick out established businesses “just because”, the city can decide where these business can locate, hours of operations, regulate window displays, and set local obscenity standards. As long as the business remains compliant, they can continue to operate. If it becomes too costly, they need to make a business decision as to whether to continue operating, or change their business model. New businesses, when looking to open in Manassas must look at what the local standards are, and determine if their business model can be in compliance.
One of the reasons I so strongly support councils thoughtful and deliberative actions on the matter at hand is they are looking at the state code, as well as those of other jurisdictions in crafting the new zoning regulations. They are drawing the line, considering input from both sides as to where it should be drawn. We can all point to the line and say “There it is”. It is objective. After we have the line, our individual subjective opinions are just that; opinions.
October 7, 2010 at 11:43 am
I agree with Steve, who continues to be well-spoken even when disagreeing with others.
I additionally observe that because what is “obscene” relates to individual community standards, there have been criminal proceedings elsewhere that were dismissed against defendants who were able to demonstrate through evidence that a disproportionate number of purchases from their shops were made by citizens within the community. That evidence was successfully used to show (or at least create a reasonable doubt, which is all that is necessary for a defendant to do in a criminal case) that the items being sold were not considered obsene within the community standards paradigm because so many citizens were purchasing them (and thus did not consider the items objectionable). I’m oversimplifying a rather long case, but you get the gist of it.
In any event, I do applaud the council’s careful measured approach here. And I especially appreciate Andy’s blog for providing a forum for reasonable debate (and even genuine cathartic expression at times).
October 7, 2010 at 11:49 am
Cindyb,
regarding your comment ” Values are objective” I couldnt disagree more. Values are subjective. Laws are objective. We are all “values voters”. We vote for candidates whose positions most closely agree with our values, with the expection that they will govern and pass laws that support these values. Look at strip clubs. In DC, they have full-nude clubs. In MD, they have them too. Just across the river in NoVA, there are 2 pastie clubs. No full-nude allowed. You have to travel all the way down to VA Beach, or Richmond before you find a full-nude club. The values of the locals are what drives this, via the people they elect to regulate this, and their willingness (or lack there of) to support these establishments with their money. What flies in San Francisco, may not fly in Manassas. What flies in DC or Manhatten, may not fly in Desmoines.
I spent a lot of time in Bentoville AR 2 years ago. Bentonville is very conservative socially. Benton County is a dry county. You could by a drink in a restaurant, but had to drive into MO or Fayetteville AR to find a retail store that sold beer, wine or liquor. There were NO “bars” or danceclubs. There were no stripclubs or even a Hooters. The people of Bentonville, Rodgers, and the greater county decided what type of place they want to live in, and the types of businesses they will permit. Yet, 30 miles south in Fayetteville, which is a college town, there were bars, danceclubs, full-nude strip-clubs, beer and wine sold in convenience stores and liquor stores. I learned all of this from the Bartender at the hotel I always stayed at, who told me it wasn’t a bar. I had to purchase food with every round I ordered, and needless to say, I ate a lot of pot-stickers while I was there. It may appear silly to someone from the outside, but that’s the way the subjective values of the people of Benton County AR wanted it, and the very objective laws of their local government reflected this. I am sure there are those who want no alcohol served, and there are those who want to have carry-out alcohol and sit in bars. The local government drew the line, and it is acceptable enough to the majority that the law stands.
October 7, 2010 at 12:27 pm
More questions (and I am not trying to make a point, I am seeking information) :
When we say community standards, are there any? Who set them? Are they just for Manassas City or do they involve the entire community meaning parts of PWC or MPC?
October 7, 2010 at 12:53 pm
Moon,
There is a “Community Standards” board. It is conviened as needed by the Commonwealth’s Attorney if there is a potential obscenity case. Undercover officers go into SOB’s and check them out to see if there is anything potentially obscene business being conducted. In the case of an actual item, they will make a purchase and it will be presented to the CA, and then to the board. If the board determines that it violates local statute, then a complaint is filed an charges brought. Kinda like a grand jury. The community, via their elected government, passes the law. The local police and the CA’s office enforces the law. It’s really no different than any other criminal indictment.
October 7, 2010 at 12:56 pm
MH,
Good Q. It depends upon the context. Zoning ordinance? Criminal obscenity case? Is it a matter with First Amendment implications? Lots of variables. Yet another reason the City is wisely proceeding here with experts (and paying $ to do it.
October 7, 2010 at 1:23 pm
Shoot, with GMU and NOVA, Manassas is a college town. If you’re not counting young people and their disposable dollars in your marketing plan, you’re missing out. The whole tie-in with the Hylton Center is eat and shop in Manassas, then go to an event at the Hylton. Where’s our Wildflour Restaurant & Bakery or Fork in the City?
Kimberly and her daughter — a college student — are smart marketers. And believe me, there are many college students who are laughing about the squeamishness and patronizing going on.
Me, I’m an “elder” as Ray would call me, but even I get over to GMU at least once every 2 weeks for some lecture or film (screening of Climate Refugees, the film that opened the 2009 International Summit on Climate Change in Copenhagen is coming Oct. 19 at 6:30 pm). It’d be nice to stop in Old Town on my way home, but so much is closed after 6 pm.
October 7, 2010 at 1:28 pm
legalese,
I couldn’t agree more. I think $71K is a small sum to spend on and a wise investment in something this important.. As in the Bentonvile AR example I cited, the law reflected the local standards, which clearly defined the what, where, and how alcohol could be consumed in public, yet it did not completely prohibit it. This seemed to work well for them. If the public wanted something different, they’d elect those who would change the law.
October 7, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Cindyb,
I am having a very hard time following your logic. College students? They make the best decisions? Granted, I was a SSgt. in the USMC, when I attended a military college, but I can assure you that I wasn’t inclined to seek the counsel of the students at College of Charleston when making life choices. If college students have the best judgement, than why is Congressional Candidate Krystal Ball on the defensive over those embarrasing (and that is all I see them as) photos taken as a college student? Her defense? I was young and stupid, basically.
The KK’s to Hylton center link is a tough one to follow to. So, if an adult, college student or otherwise, is going to attend a show, would the itinerary look something like this?:
-6 pm: Dinner & Drinks at Okras.
-7:30 pm: Stop by Opera House Gormet, pick up a nice Argentine Malbec
-8:00 pm: Hit KK’s Temptations. Buy XXX Video, “Anal Girls of Sorrity Row”, “spinning rabbit” vibrator, black teddy and pumpkin spice candle.
-9:00 pm: Rogers and Hammerstein’s Pirates of Penzance at Hylton center.
Is that how it works? I am only 44, hardly an old curmudgeon. My lovely wife is 34, and we have a regular date night. I must be missing something.
October 7, 2010 at 2:17 pm
ST.
I think you have 8 and 9 o’clock hours mixed up. LOL Just a little comic relief.
October 7, 2010 at 2:25 pm
WSGFN,
Switching the 8pm and 9pm activities would involve an 11pm trip back into Old Town. I am all about efficiency.
October 7, 2010 at 2:29 pm
BAHAHAHAHA
October 7, 2010 at 3:07 pm
11 pm Manassas Junction Bed & Breakfast 🙂
October 7, 2010 at 3:17 pm
CB’s marketing skills at it again!
October 7, 2010 at 11:23 pm
@Cindy
As the duly appointed City Commission on Aging (or as Jon Way calls me – the City’s designated “Old Man” even at 54), you are not an “elder”. At the young age of 55, folks can become a member of the Senior Center Manassas.
At the young Age of 60, Congrats! Take advantage of the benefits under the Older Americans Act with that title of being “Older”. At Age 75…Welcome to being “aged”. At 85, cross the threshold to being “Oldest of Old”. At 100, Centenarian.
Except under Federal Housing, then when we turn 55, we are all called “elderly”.
Don’t ya just love terms?
October 7, 2010 at 11:27 pm
ANOTHER TAKE ON “COMMUNITY STANDARDS”:
As Andy put up on his next post, a “blast from the past”. Take a look at the Town of Manassas, circa 1900, and what our Ordinances were back then.
http://www.pwcvabooks.com/documents/1900Ordinances.pdf
October 8, 2010 at 2:22 am
Thanks, Steve. So who decides when it convenes? Paul? What is to keep someone from going in daily to one of these stores and making a purchase? Would book stores and video stores be included if they had content that was ‘adult?’
New questions: What is a sexually oriented business and who determines that?
Would book stores and video game arcades as well as places that sell games be included?
Who authorized a purchase? How often would/can/does this happen?
I see all sorts of room for abuse here.
October 8, 2010 at 2:28 am
It sounds like the good people of Manassas didn’t look too kindly on pigs, ‘ho-ing , panhandling or gamblin’. Life was simpler then.
October 8, 2010 at 10:44 am
I actually put up the old Town Ordinances in part as a bit of humor, in part as a bit of reflection. Some of those ordinances can even be found in our current set.
Moon, even under our current rules, you can have domesticated fowl, horses, mules, and pigs on your property – which is why I sit and laughed so hard listening to BOCS talk about chickens on zoned agricultural land. And the pig one back in 1900 was just too funny considering now. Personally, I liked the one about keeping your horse off the sidewalk.
And since Moon is bringing up qualifiers, add one more to the list of questions –
Just what is “family friendly”?
That is has been bantered back and forth all through the discussions and comments at Citizens’ Time. What definition is going to be used for “family”?
The City tried that once, and as Andy has pointed out several times, it cost us and got us slammed back into the sling (as the old saying goes minus one word).
October 8, 2010 at 11:15 am
Moon-Howler,
My understanding is the standards board is conviened as needed, depending upon whether or not there is a credible complaint made for obscenity. So, if law enforcement doesn’t bring a potential obscenity case to the CA’s office during a particular period, there’s no need to conviene the board. Remember, it’s function is much like that of a Grand Jury. The CA presents the evidence, and if the board, who has an understanding of what the prevailing law is, believes there is credible evidence that an obscentiy violation has occurred, then an indictment is issued. The check on this is if the CA doesn’t believe there’s a case, it isn’t presented to the board at all.
The preliminary investigative work is done by sworn law enforcement, I believe it is handled under the “vice squad” of the particular jurisdiction, as officers assigned to this duty have special training in this field (gambling, prostitution, etc. etc.). I would imagine that the frequency that checks are made is dependent on resources. I would also imagine that if a credible tip came from the community, it would be investigated…just like any potential crimminal activity. I would also imagine that any purchases made as part of an investigation go through the exact same process that an undercover narcotics officer would have to go through, to get funds to do a drug-buy.
Perhaps to help you understand the process, substitute “narcotics” for “obscentity” and “Grand Jury” for “Standards or Obscenity Board” in this scenario:
A concerned citizen sees what he or she believes to be narcotics transactions taking place at a retail business. They report it to the police. The police assign it to a narcotics detective, who goes into the retail establishment. He sees what he believes as a narcotics transaction taking place, and requests funds from his supervisor to make a drug buy. He buys the drugs and they are tested and found to be a prohibited substance. A report, along with the evidence is brought to the CA’s office, and they review it. They believe they have enough to convince a Grand Jury, and do so. The Grand Jury reviews the evidence and the charges, and compares it to the law, and determines that there is sufficient evidence to believe a crime has been committed. The Grand Jury issues an idictment and the prosecution process begins. There is a trial under due process and guilt or innocence is determined.
Regarding “what is a sexually oriented business?” That is a measurement of criteria against a community defined standard, ie. an ordinance or law, which are written and implemented via our government. Civics 101 stuff here. If video games meet a certain, previously defined criteria for “pornography” then they are subject to regulation. Refer back to my Bentonville AR example. I was sitting at what appeared to be a “bar”, drinking an adult beverage. However, bars are illegal in Bentonville. Only restaurants can serve alcohol. There was a criteria set by the community. Establishments whose gross receipts for alcohol sales were above a pre-defined percentage of gross, were bars, and thus illegal. Therefore, in order to meet the standard, the establishment determined that they would have to sell a food item with every drink served, in a certain price-range (ie. their business model) in order to be both profitable, and legally compliant. So, I had to order an order of potstickers (the cheapest thing on the menu) for ever drink I ordered. It wasn’t enough for me to just have a plate of cold food in front of me. The “restaurant” had to manage their business to a standard, and if I ordered 2 drinks per plate of potstickers, it would screw up their percentages. So, I would imagine a “sexually oriented business” would be defined as those businesses who derive a more than a pre-defined percentage of their gross revenues from a set of products a reasonable man or woman would classify as “sexually oriented”. Adult DVD’s where sex is shown, vibrators and other devices which may have a penetrative purpose or simulate human to human copulation perhaps would classify, whereas fuzzy handcuffs and lingere candles and such would not. Spencer’s may fall below this standard because the reciepts from vibrators are such a small fraction of the total, but if they sold even one adult DVD that would be enough, and they would be subject to the same laws as any other SOB. Who sets these standards? The community, via their elected government.
Do you see? Obscenity is treated no differently than any other criminal activity under the law. There is no more potential for abuse in obscenity cases than there is in any other criminal case. The suspects rights are protected under the same due process,
October 8, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Hmmm, Mr. Thomas, well, by virtue of your one of your standards of “sexually oriented business”, wouldn’ t every man be classifed in a bar, having had a few cocktails (pardon the pun), be subject to “other devices which may have a penetrative purpose or simulate human to human copulation”. As far as I can tell, all normal functioning men would qualify for having a “penetrative purpose”. Now, just because they possess one, doesn’t mean they will use it right then and there. This I know, it aint my business to dictate, when or how often they allowed to do so. As long as it is legal and between two consenting adults, I really could care less. My view on vibrators and other things, who CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don’t want one, then don’t buy one…..problem solved 🙂
October 8, 2010 at 2:29 pm
Elena,
I do see your point, in the jest it was intended, and offer in kind. As long as the man in the bar is not selling the services that said naturally occuring device would render, he could not be classified as an “SOB” (Sexually Oriented Business) in the under the legal standards, because he failed to meet the percentage of reciepts needed to be classified as such. That said, he still may indeed be and SOB (Sonofa…) if after providing said services free of charge, he didn’t even send the lady flowers… 😉
October 8, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Here is the difference, as I see it: other ‘crimes’ are set by the state. It is illegal to hit someone with a baseball bat, Even thought a baseball bat is a baseball bat, it is being used as a weapon.
If those are the standards than I would say some stores have been getting by for a long time without being caught.
Also, if a jurisdiction concerned itself with what kind of vibrator someone bought, it would be time to throw the bums out and bring in new people.
I can understand not wanting child porn or videos showing violence and rape in the community. These are all things that are illegal at the state level.
Golden showers definitely hits my ewwwwwwwwwwww radar full speed ahead but other than total disgust…I am not sure someone should be arrested for being gross and disgusting if they are being gross and disgusting all by themselves. I am sure there are things I haven’t thought of but geez.
I am more concerned over violence, rape, child abduction and that sort of thing than I am over vibrators and those sorts of things. Toys just don’t seem to be anyone’s business.
I am trying to reconcile how those horrible Westboro people can claim first amendment rights and they are protected and yet government can stick its nose into the type of vibrator one is allowed to buy. Something just isn’t right here.
October 8, 2010 at 5:24 pm
One more question–this board…is it a standing board or would it convene like a grand jury is called?
If standing, who gets to decide who goes on it?
October 8, 2010 at 5:30 pm
MH,
I will verify, but I believe it operates like a Grand Jury.
October 8, 2010 at 8:57 pm
HEY FOLKS! FIRST ROUND DRAFT ORDINANCE IS UP ON THE CITY WEBSITE!!!!!!
Now that I have your attention, the first round draft of the intermediate ordinance (replaced by final ordinance in April 2011) is up, so go take a look if you have not already. It is Action Item #9; scroll down to Page 29 of the Agenda:
http://www.manassascity.org/archives/42/Agenda%20Packet%20-%20October%2011,%202010.pdf
October 8, 2010 at 8:59 pm
P.S.
Like it says, it is the INITIATION of the action, to have a follow on public hearing.
October 8, 2010 at 10:06 pm
“I am trying to reconcile how those horrible Westboro people can claim first amendment rights and they are protected and yet government can stick its nose into the type of vibrator one is allowed to buy. Something just isn’t right here.”
MH,
I think you may be over-generalizing. The council is drawing the line with some degree of specificity. Now the actual substanitive debate can begin. The government takes a much different view of “Free Speech” when applied to “political speech”, whereas pornographic material and adult sex toys have much less to do with actual communication. Granted, the court has had to do some stretching to cover the Westboro crazies, the Klan and the Nazis, it’s not nearly as far as they’d have to stretch free speech to cover a dildo and butt-plug. No one is saying you can’t own these in the city. What they are regulating is the sale of them. And yes, there are limits to what the Westboro crazies, Klan and Nazi’s can do and say, and where they can do it or say it. Like it’s illegal to burn a cross in many, many jurisdictions, even on private property. The Nazi’s can march, but if their actions appear to be with the intent to incite a riot, that isn’t protected. Hate speech is a standard. Same with obscenity standards.
October 8, 2010 at 10:20 pm
I can’t begin to straighten it all out.
So are there regulations about what can be bought and sold in the city? Is there a place I can look at the list? (not saying I want to, but could I?)
October 9, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Moon, tough call on “a list”. Look to the draft for the beginning of definitions. Your right in that it is tough to straighten it all out with variables based on what is a local community standard.
Even defining what is an obscene/vulgar book is a tough call, as even within the Virginia Code it is a long, detailed explanation.
October 9, 2010 at 3:31 pm
” IMMORAL DISPLAYS
There has been much discussion in Manassas the past
year or so over the propriety of certain ‘freak dances’
and some of the new styles of ladies’ dresses.
The dances have been prohibited in many places,
and should be here, and some women have been
arrested for the display they have made of themselves in
public.
The two dances now tearing dancing clubs apart
are the ‘Turkey Trot’ and the ‘Tango’. While not
a graceful dance, there is nothing immoral about
the Turkey Trot except to an immoral person. The
Tango, on the other hand, should not be permitted by
parents or floor managers. It must have been invented
by some one who wished to see how far public
sentiment would go.
And the extreme in split skirts is only worn for advertising
purposes and deserves a prison sentence instead of
a fine and should also also be banned by the
Town Council.”
Manassas Democrat editorial (July, 14, 1913)
October 10, 2010 at 12:34 am
Steve, good one! Like my posting of the Town Ordinances of 1900, shows reaction as things progressed as to what is moral or immoral.
I wonder what the old papers had to say about “flappers” in the “Roaring Twenties”? I can imagine a similar uproar.
October 10, 2010 at 12:50 am
Another twist on Moon’s question of “a list”.
One of the “fun” tasks of being a NCO in the Army (and Mr. Thomas may remember something similar from his Corps days) was the First Sergeant calling us in to do a “Health & Welfare” in the barracks.
Based on the Barracks SOP giving a list of prohibited items – which included what was “ok” pornography for a soldier to have – we went room to room for the shakedown. The list include more than just pornography, if you wondered. Keeping weapons, ammo, open food and the list was long…and I carried it with me.
That list varied in the various places I was assigned over the years…Europe had a BIG list since lots of prohibited films/books/magazines (and many of those are obscene and banned in the US for subjects such as beastiality, some of the BDSM, “skat” films showing voiding/defecation) are available in the local markets. Korea was similar in that respect. And I have heard stories from friends who have found young soldiers in the two sandboxes with a long, long list of prohibitied items because of the two regions they are in.
The list was developed taking in what the Military already considered to be obscene, and adjusted for the location. I can even recall my father, as a Marine Gunnery Sergeant, doing similar detail…Playboy “ok” since it was “erotic” and Hustler “bad” since it crossed the line.
Somethings are outright against the law such as child pornograhy (another long detailed item in the VIrgina Code). Others are against common law definition of obscenity as I described above. The tough call, as I said in other posts, is the erotic to the middle ground….and finding that middle ground is difficult. Easier to diffuse a minefield, me thinks.
October 10, 2010 at 4:37 pm
Mr. Beverage,
I do indeed remember the “health and welfare” inspection (both standing for, and later, conductiong them). I also remember the list of “off limits” establishments out in town, that had some how run afowl of the base’s decency standards. It was printed in the back of the base newspaper, posted on the “read board” in every barracks, and it was your responsibility upon reporting aboard to determine where you could and couldn’t go, and what you could and couldn’t do. The Corps had it’s all-encompasing standard, and local commanders could add to it, at their discretion.
October 10, 2010 at 4:48 pm
I am getting ready to go tackle that first draft. A friend who shall go nameless and I have been swapping information from the Staunton case. I have deep roots in Staunton so I have been ferreting out information.
Actually, I see no comparison between that case and anything to do with KK Temptations. If the city were concerned about raunchy movies, I would suggest they are severeal years late in going after MVC. I went to the website to look at all the locations and ran in to more toys than a person could shake a stick at.
I still see KK’s as being singled out when other stores aren’t receving the same treatment.
If it were my decision, I would not even deal with adult video but no one asked my opinion.
October 10, 2010 at 7:39 pm
Spend the money. You are painting yourself into a corner, starting with the remark about increased crime, diminished quality of life and decreased property value. That is anecdotal. Learn from Big Brother Billy Bob’s mistakes.
It seems to me, from an outside point of view, that this store might bring people to town.
Made my phone call to Staunton. The towns people were fairly irritated that Ray Robertson spent so much money on his own personal crusade. The store was eventually closed. It had been out on a road where there wasn’t much else going on.
October 10, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Moon, you mentioned the adult video, so I toss this one into the discussion….under the category of “What If?”
What if KK’s sells only videos which match local community standards, and goes one further step with them….
What if those that are sold carry ratings by The Classification & Rating Administration (CARA)? These ratings are voluntary, but used by the MPAA for films released in theatres. Granted, only the “R” and “NC-17” would probably be the ones used in this instance of pornagraphy.
Oh, “NC-17” – no one under 17 admitted and the rating is not necessarily meaning pornographic; it means the rating may be based on sexual, violence, aberrational behavior, drug abuse or other content most parents would consider inappropriate for viewing by children.
In that light, the draft shows age 18….but if the films are rated NC-17 and therefore legal for 17+ to see or purchase, may have a conflict here.
October 12, 2010 at 9:56 am
I have a legitimate question. Lets say someone has a concern over a particular movie in one of the existing stores. The PD goes in, buys it and takes it to the CA. The CA convenes the Morality and standards board who agree it is against community standards. Is the store given the opportunity to remove the offending video or are they immediately prosecuted? Seems to me how would a store owner know one of their vidoes does not meet community standards until they are told. Just wondering!
October 12, 2010 at 11:36 am
We now have girls under the age of 12 and younger running around in shorts with writing on their rumps. It’s always about pushing the envelope.
It used to be guys had an ear ring, now it’s noses, tongues, chests, etc. Ditto for girls.