I read most of the local blogs. Some I read the posts and every comment, some just the posts. Moonhowling has an interesting post up on the City Council and the situation with the adult store and the abortion protests. Even if I don’t agree with everything she has to say, I do appreciate the thoughtfulness of the post. People don’t write the Council or call just to report that everything is ok…:) Greg has an open thread on the protest as well. The JM has an article with a lot of posts.
I suppose that fundamentally I don’t see anything wrong with the nuts and bolts of what has happened in the past few weeks. Some people who should have known better sent out emails and said things that they probably shouldn’t have but it happens. This type of public discourse is how communities figure these things out. It ain’t all pretty. I’ll be the first to admit that it is pretty tough on the back to sit through a 5 hour citizens time but it is all part of it. This is how it works. Nobody was jeering and most were unfailingly polite. I would say that it would be tremendously difficult to do one of those public meetings were you had a divided crowd. Some of the 287g meetings we had early on had relatively divided crowds but it’s up to the Mayor to keep control of the meeting. Participants must be civil.
In our case, the City, after a marathon public meeting, shuttled the matter to the Land Use Committee. Mr. Way chaired a great meeting and we came up with a credible plan to proceed. I think that it is fair to say that, even though few of the present Council members were onboard when the “Family” ordinance was passed, we learned from having to clean up that mess. No laws were passed in haste and a deliberate course of action was established.
This is the way it’s supposed to work: The citizens identify something that they want addressed, the Council takes it up and figures out what, if anything, can be done. Then we get about it. Often, the initial phase of citizen comment and government response can be a bit messy but that’s the nature of the beast. Citizens don’t usually show up to speak unless they are passionate about something. This can lead to some difficult things being said but these too will settle over a short time.
What really matters the most in these trying situations is that early on in the process – when the heat is really on – that the Council stays cool and takes careful action – listen to the citizens and take considered action. Above all, the Council has the resolve to do what the law demands – even if it is unpopular.
PS – After reflecting on this overnight, I’d also say that part of what has made the recent dialog successful is the willingness of the citizens to listen and educate themselves (often on their own!). They have found, as I have found over the past 5 years, that you aren’t always happy with what you find out but you need to know. It’s not enough to simply shout at the rain….I thank them all for that.
BTW – I’m currently reading a book written by the guy who prosecuted an obscenity case in Staunton. It’s enlightening, frightening and encouraging often all at once but above all it shows that it is possible.
October 3, 2010 at 11:16 pm
Some people will never learn when to keep their mouths shut. I’ll just stop listening. All I’ll hear is wan wannn wann waaaaan (Charlie Brown’s teacher).
October 4, 2010 at 7:10 am
Thank you, Andy….great post!
October 4, 2010 at 7:56 am
a P.S. after reading the morning paper: good Letter to the Editor from Jon. Clear, concise and to the point in his usual manner 🙂
October 4, 2010 at 10:24 am
Andy,
On the matter at hand, I believe the council has acted with a sense of urgency, tempered by caution, gained through experience. I support the efforts 100%. I don’t think we will have to wait very long for negative secondary effects to begin to appear. You are correct, there are citizens on both sides of the issue, very passionately expressing their opinions. Some want council to shut the place down before it even opens. Others want council to adopt a “hands-off” policy. In both these cases, neither has thought things through to where those courses of action would lead. Thankfully, our City Council has, and can count on my support for the duration.
October 4, 2010 at 4:09 pm
and just to clarify a point made by Ms. Nettie Stevens on another thread pertaining to this issue:
“I find it funny…that those involved in the protest ACTUALLY wanted it to be held IN FRONT of KK’s DURING the October Fest. However, THANK GOODNESS, someone at the police department would not give them a permit for that location. SO IF they tell you “oh it was at city hall not at the fall festival”…that’s because the police diverted their EVIL PLAN”
.
Ma’am. That is incorrect. I secured the permit for the protest. At no time was there any discussion of having it anywhere accept where it was actually held, nor was any permit application made for a location other than where it was held. I can understand that you and I are on different sides of the issues. You are entitled to your own opinion, but you need not spread false information and present that as your own set of facts.
October 4, 2010 at 4:12 pm
except, not accept
October 4, 2010 at 6:29 pm
WOW…I guess some one at the police department lied to me then. AND just one more reason not to join the Republican party…WHY would YOU as the local leader of our republican party head such a protest. I’ll make SURE to inform those that I know WHO IN FACT secured the permit. Thanks for the clarification!
October 4, 2010 at 7:46 pm
@ Andy – how about a book plug? What is the name and author of that book your reading, please? And thanks!
October 4, 2010 at 7:57 pm
Raymond…be careful, that almost sounded indecent. ; )
October 4, 2010 at 8:55 pm
I suggest someone submit a Freedom of Information request to the Police Department to find out was is being untruthful about the original protest location. I sincerely hope it is not Mr. Thomas.
October 5, 2010 at 8:25 am
Mrs. Stevens, if you can produce more evidence than 2nd hand heresay, I’ll be happy to debate you on the when and where of the protest plan. But please consider that I put the information forward, and didn’t hide behind a screen name. I am also a veteran of numerous issue oriented campaigns, and know that the truth is always the best fact to present, because it stands up so nicely to lies, rumors and accusations. If someone would like to do a FOIA then by all means: please do. You will not find anything other than what I have offerred freely. As far as the organizing goes, I did submit the application. I wrote the description, and I requested the location. I did this once. I had two conversations with the MCPD regarding the event. One at the time of permit issuance, with Lt. Barnes the issuing officer and another with the Chief to clarify that the permit I secured was for the protest discussed in the News & Messenger article. There were no plans to have it at any other location than what was requested and approved, at anytime. There was one application made, which was approved, and the demonstration held. There were no incidents beyond a city employee who decided to come voice her differing opinion, but unwisely did so while repeatedly pointing to her official ID, referencing who her employer was, and refusing to leave when asked to do so by the permit holder, me.
To your point regarding the Republican party, and my leadership position therein: I would be happy if you decided to join, but I am not disappointed that you have decided not to. Basically, it is your decision to make, and I respect it either way. I have been a dedicated Republican my entire voting life, and active in the party since my retirement from the United States Marine Corps. If I am more socially conservative than you, I make no appologies for that, nor do I expect any from you who may be a bit more socially moderate than me. You see, I do believe in the Big Tent, and have campaigned for every Republican who currently serves on council, or has served, or had secured the nomination, but was not elected, in the last 13 years. Moderate or conservative, I have put the party first, and I would challenge you to find a case where I did not. But this is a seperate issue entirely.
To your last point, if I was afraid of someone finding out that I secured the permit, I wouldn’t have done so. Please tell whomever you like. I hope you meant this to be informative, and not a threat. In order for a threat to effect the threatened, as in the case of blackmail, the target must fear the repurcussions. Since you and I have met only once, perhaps you don’t know that I this isn’t my first trip to the political rodeo. If someone would like to challenge my position in the party, please let them do so. Also tell them to eat a big breakfast, and pack a lunch. I will place my Republican credentials against any who would seek to challenge my Vice Chairmanship. I was not speaking for, or representing the GOP while helping to organize the protest. My reasons for doing so are mine. If you would like to speak with me to gain a better understanding of why I oppose the shop, I would be happy to meet you for coffee to discuss them, and I would also be willing to listen to your side as well.
But what I find most puzzling about your comments regarding me and others who are against the shop, is the very selective outrage you are expressing. There were 4 of 6 city councilman there, most of whom addressed the peacefully assembled. This includes the owner of this blog, who is our mutual friend. Their comments would indicate that they are supportive of our actions, as we are supportive of theirs. Our delegate was there as well. Since I assuming that you are supportive of the shop, I am sure the actions of the entire city council in this matter have angered you. Do you plan to challenge each one of them as well, or is it just easier to post negative comments about those you (incorrectly) believe have no political power or influence? Mothers and fathers, persons of faith, members of the OTBA and HMI, who are also opposed to this type of business in Old Town? That’s a very big list of “EVIL” types you want to take on.
October 5, 2010 at 10:37 am
Steve:
Thanks for taking the time to craft such a comprehensive and even response.
Everyone else, be cool. Debating the issue is cool. Kneecapping each other ain’t.
October 5, 2010 at 10:51 am
Do you feel better…good. It’s healthy ya know to get all of that off your chest.
I have been a Republican for MANY years. I chose the party based on fiscal responsiblity, less government and most importantly FREE ENTERPRISE.
THIS IS NOT what is happening. In fact, this entire situation is JUST THE POLAR opposite of what I believed to be the stance of the republican party.
It’s going to cost me as a MCity tax payer, money for the MCity council to do an analysis of the situation. A legitmate business is being bullied into “leaving town” when they are following the VERY RULES that had been set out by the representatives in the City.
No where did I say you were afraid…and I certainly did not threatened you…if you feel threatened, it is JUST THAT…your feeling.
“I am sure the actions of the entire city council in this matter have angered you.”…let me answer this one…NOPE not all.
I did not call anyone EVIL…I called the plan EVIL…and I still feel the plan was EVIL. As most are saying…it’s not necessarily the buisness…it’s the location. Same for the “Peaceful protest”. I wasn’t about the protest…it was about the date/time.
You did make metion of a political rodeo…yes indeed sir and MOST RODEO’s require a clown to get someone out of trouble.
October 5, 2010 at 11:07 am
The City Council is going to do what it has to do. There are a whole lot of people out there who aren’t taking the social conservative point of view.
No one has yet to really define what they mean by ‘porn.’ To some people I have talked to, the statue of David and Venus di Milo are porn. To others, not so much. They are pieces of art.
That seems like the place to start reasonable discussion, rather than just folks throwing around the term ‘porn.’ Will we apply the same standards to book stores and video arcades?
Finally, there is the law. I expect something that would totally gross me out might very well be perfectly legal.
October 5, 2010 at 11:23 am
Nettie brought up the bully word. She is correct. I feel there is a lot of bullying going on also. There appears to be an attempt to bully the owners into leaving. There also appears to be be an attempt to bully those who stand up for them.
Some of us just don’t comply with the bullying.
October 5, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Mrs. Stevens,
I feel fine. Rather than going back and forth on this blog, I would welcome the opportunity to meet and have respectful discussion in person. Beer summit at Andy’s perhaps?
October 5, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Sounds good to me!
October 5, 2010 at 1:33 pm
I would like to say that I also joined the Republican party for the same reasons as Ms. Stevens. Not so a bunch of people can attempt to infuse their religious views into the party. It seems as if people have labeled people for the new business as liberal democrats and people against the business as conservative Republicans. But I think a lot of harm as been done to the Republican party in this City because of this issue. I personally know many of the posters on BVBL, this blog and the local newspapers and I can assure everyone, a very large portion are what I would consider moderate Republicans that could jump ship. For my part, I am only against the process in what has happened to two women who legally opened a business and now everyone wants to crucify them for following the rules. I have no issues at all with the City looking to change the rules for future businesses, still not sure why the City’s Attorney can’t handle the job, rather than spending our $71,000. Not sure that I would have ever enetered the store before all this, but I can assure you, me and my wife will the day it opens in support of Free American Enterprise!
October 5, 2010 at 1:47 pm
Moon-howler,
For the record, I am 100% in favor of the actions of the council. That was the point of the protest, to express our support of the council, and our opposition to the shop. I conceed that the owners do have a legitimate right to open their business, and to operate it as such as long as they do so within the bounds of the law and adhere to the standards set by the duly conviened standards board. If I am not mistaken, this body operates under the direction of the Commonwealth’s Attorney’s office. I also support the rights of citizens to express their opposition to the shop, whether based on its location, or on the greater principle of opposing any sexually oriented business in general, and to take such lawful actions to make the shop’s location untenable. What some may classify as “bullying” others may classify as “activism”. Same with defining “what is pornography”. While we may not agree on where the line is drawn, I am sure we can agree that a line exists. You are right, something that totally disgusts you, may be perfectly acceptable to another. To the “freemarketeers” I say: How about a pastie club where the old O’meara’s sits? Is that over the line for you? Since Carmellos has to do some post-fire remodeling, why not a full-nude establishment? Is that over the line? An S&M club at Mackies? It may be acceptable for some, but not for others. Some might say not OK for Old Town, but OK out by the airport. Others would say, not in my town, while others not in my state. I am sure that if pushed far enough, there’s a point where we’d both be standing on the line saying “no further”. There must be a line that the “reasonable man or woman” could agree on. This applies to every aspect of civil society. Without it, we have anarchy.
Also, I would like to point out that I don’t condone nor do I support the direction the dialogue has taken on other forums, yours included.. I don’t think the crass comments made about any who have spoken in favor of the shop are appropriate, and I am equally infuriated by the comments made about the very nice lady, wife and mother who I helped organize the protest. I ask that we try to remember that those who support the shop, for whatever reason are not harlots or sex-fiends, and those who are against it are not uptight puritans who hate sex and as put on your blog “in great need of what the shop will offer” or something to that effect. On both sides I would hope someone would consider these folks are someone’s wife, mother, or daughter.
I respect Cindyb for speaking publically, even though I disagree with her, and I have stated such on this blog. My sole intention for commenting on this thread was to counter what I know to be incorrect information regarding the permit application process, but I will also condemn the remarks made on blogs about your friends and associates, and just as strongly condemn those made about mine. The last thing I want is for this discussion to spill over onto other forums, but I suppose it will.
October 5, 2010 at 2:03 pm
ManassasCityResident,
I disagree that this is a partisan issue, and I continue to support the big tent GOP. The fact that the council is 5 Republicans ranging from social conservative, fiscal conservative, more moderate on either issue, and yet they all recognize that the ordinance we had wasn’t sufficient demonstrates this is not a partisan issue. If you and the Missus want to support the shop for whatever reason, it has no bearing on your “Republicanishness” as far as I am concerned. But I pose the same question to you as I did to Moonhowler: Where do the collective “we” draw the line? It takes what Andy terms a “messy debate” to figure out where to place the line. Believe it or not, I’d rather be having the debate now, th
October 5, 2010 at 2:04 pm
than at a time when someone tries to open “Goodguys West”.
October 5, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Mr. Thomas, that was my point, I don’t think it is a partisan issue either. The line should be drawn at what is legal and what is not. This business obtained all the necessary permits legally. As I said, I have no problem with the City taking the steps to elilinate future stores. But I must admit, your ease in admitting you will take legal steps to make the space untenable is quite franly, scary for someone who is supposed to represent the best in what Manassas has to offer on the Republican side. What if I decide to go to the Christian book store, who is legally occupying a space, and protest and make their stay untenable. So I ask you, where do we draw the line? Again, I beleive this is what most people have in opposition to your stance. You want to harrass a legal busines, rather than simply make sure another doesn’t locate within the City. Which I think most could accept. Then let the market decide if these two women stay in business or not.
October 5, 2010 at 2:40 pm
ManassasCityResident,
“Harrass”, “Stock”, “loiter about” getting in people’s faces with video cameras, photographing patrons as they enter or exit the store or any other term that implies a threat is not what I am referring to, nor would I support that. To clarify; legal means legal. Lawful means lawful. Writing letters to the editor. Speaking before council. Exercising the right to peaceably assemble. Standing at the corner passing out a flyer, after obtaining the proper permit from the city, asking businesses in Old Town to display a sign in their window stating opposition to the shop. These are legal and lawful. To say the owners have a right to run their business, as long as they obey the law, becuase their product is protected under freedom of expression, while saying that citizens don’t have a right to exercise their rights to free speech is a bit hypocrtical, wouldn’t you agree? I disagree with many th
October 5, 2010 at 2:44 pm
ings. That doesn’t mean I support anything illegal conducted against those with whom I disagree. I spent too many years in the uniform of our country to support that.
October 5, 2010 at 4:01 pm
MCR,
You’re not sure why the city attorney can’t handle the job?
How do you think we got to this point?
Poor government, poor zoning equals a mess.
I think the City council has done a decent job responding to the issue, but I would like the City Council to review the work of the City Manager, City Attorney and the officials in charge of zoning and development.
Keep insulting parents, who put their children first, who want to live in a city where moral and civic virtues are taught and respected. See how good that is for business in Manassas.
BTW, unless everyone else knows who you are and I’m simply too new to the Manassas blogosphere, I have a suggestion for what you might want to buy in that shop: a set of ….. name tags. 🙂
October 5, 2010 at 4:10 pm
Mr. Thomas, your answer is a bit incomplete. I answered where we draw the line. I stated at the point the activity is legal. But what about my question, where do we draw the line in protesting legal businesses? Do we protest Christian bookstores, women’s fitness facilities, service stations that have condom dispensers in the restrooms? BTW, I was not suggesting you meant anything illegal.
Mr. Brown, I have chosen to stay anonymous at this time. However, in staying anonymous, I will make every attempt to stay completely civil. Unlike many people on both sides of this issue.
October 5, 2010 at 5:09 pm
Can I attend the beer summit, too? My interest is building community, not politics, though.
For the record, Del. Miller did call me yesterday. I appreciate that and his continued support of our work in the neighborhoods.
October 5, 2010 at 5:31 pm
Steve,
Apparently there is some discrepancy between how you describe the demonstration here and how other folks have described it. I see the words “peaceful protest against this sex shop” on the communication I am currently looking at. That doesn’t sound like showing support for the council to me. But the email wasn’t from you. The object of the protest was unclear to me and others. Earlier I had a communication that described KK Temptation as a porn shop. Adult boutiques aren’t porn shops, to me.
To my knowlege, no one has written anything vulgar on my blog about anyone, especially the organizer of the protest. I am the only one who commented on her at all. I based my comments on remarks made in writing to Ms. Skokan. I had not planned to embarrass the lady in question by printing those remarks. Some of them were definitely what I consider ‘unkind’ There is no comparison between the discourse on my blog and some of the vulgar remarks I have seen elsewhere.
People should be able to express their opinion without being bullied. Regardless of what is printed on my blog, that has nothing to do with Cindy, who is also someone’s wife, mother and daughter.
Having said that, I think if we start projecting what could come in next, we go down a slippery slope. I don’t think any of us would like a pastie club down at the O’Meara;s site including Mr. Cantrell, the owner. That was why I suggested a discussion of defining what is pornography. Setting community standards should involve a good cross section of the community, not just a select few.
If it is the intent of the Council to tighten the reins on the kinds of shops they want in the city or in the historic section, it sounds to me like an open forum needs to happen rather than just throwing the terms porn, pornography, and obscenity around willy nilly. What is it that the city doesn’t want? You gave some very specific examples and I would agree with you on those things. Others may feel differently.
Feel free to visit my blog and email me about concerns you might have. I think I have said all I am comfortable saying in open forum about individuals. Truthfully, we really shouldn’t be discussing individuals anyway. It is about issues.
That invitation is extended to everyone here.
October 5, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Moon howler…I don’t know who you are…but I just love that name!!!!!
October 5, 2010 at 7:42 pm
Dear Mr. Thomas,
Since I have been the brunt of most of the vulgarity on the “other” blog, I can firmly say that there is simply no comparison to Moonhowlings.
I can understand people’s concerns, I would HATE to have a Hooters open up any near my community. I am all for people expressing their concerns, but it is the way in which they express them that matters.
Are we all perfect, of course not, but I can guarantee you, NO ONE on moonhowlings has so persistently and so cruely personally attacked, based on looks or religion, anybody over and over and over again like a specific other blog we are all aware of.
October 5, 2010 at 8:26 pm
Thank you so much, WSGFN
Elena and I are the owners and administrators of moonhowlings.net
Stop by for a visit.
October 5, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Dear friends:
I want to live in a community where people can have different opinions, express those opinions, and not be attacked for doing so.
I want to live in a community where differences of opinion are celebrated, where we thank our lucky stars that our government does everything it can to protect dissent regardless of what quarter it comes from.
Like family members at the Thanksgiving table I want us to try our best to not push others over the edge when we disagree with them, because we want to continue breaking bread with them throughout the remainder of the year and for years to come.
Manassas can be such a place. This blog can be such a place. It is up to us.
Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Amen.
October 6, 2010 at 5:21 am
“Old Town Manassas: A Historic Setting for Your 21st Century Business”
I open with that tag line as the focus to have Old Town remain as it is, is one of those “points” or “lines” much in discussion. Mentioned to Andy one of the the back issues to Old Town is we have a 2002 Comp Plan, but no Business Plan aside from the last one he personally developed for “Manassas Next”. A Comp Plan is a vision, sets standards (such as the buildings all must have a certain facade that blends with older buildings, etc. etc. etc.), but does not DEFINE exactly where to go with it.
There have been several new structural additions to Old Town that have blended in well, and those buildings are set for businesses of the 21st Century. As I recall a presentation by Liz Via-Gossman, there were discussions going on with the US General Services Administration to locate some type of entity here. A new law firm took over the old Family Services Offices located at one end of the district.
The Mayor, when he took office, said “Manassas Next is Manassas Now” and movement went forward to implement that business plan. We need another one…and possibly HMI and OTBA working together could create it.
So the question is: Do we want to be Manassas Next, Manassas Now, or Manassas Then?
To simply rest on historical only is a dangerous approach with an example occuring in Bedford, VA. The D-Day Memorial was placed there and as many may have heard, is going broke. The Independent City of Bedford, having counted on what was supposed to be a large influx of people and did not occur, is in financial straits (a Southwest Virginia Regional unemployment rate of almost 14% is another impact). Word on the street is Bedford may be going to the General Assembly and asking they be reverted back to a town.
Manassas Next, Manassas Now, or Manassas Then?
October 6, 2010 at 7:31 am
Moon-howler, regarding your comment: “Adult boutiques aren’t porn shops, to me.” Perhaps you haven’t looked nearly as deeply into the nature of the shop as I and members of council have. If the shop all the were selling was lingerie and perhaps some “marital aids” I could agree with classifying the shop as a “boutique”. But when you are selling DVD’s with titles such as “Hot Adolecent Sluts”, I would have to classify this as pornography. So, what is the Steve Thomas judgement of pornography? To quote Justice Potter Stewart: “I know it when I see it”. While I don’t consider Playboy pornographic (and I don’t look at it either, but hey, I was a young Marine once), I do consider Larry Flynt’s publication to be porn. I consider any film which actually shows people actually engaged in intercourse or masturbating to be pornographic. Having researched the type of “Adult DVD’s” the owners listed on their now-suspended website, I do believe that the selection offerred will fit a generally accepted definition of porn. Members of council have seen this on the KK’s website, before the owners quickly took it down.
Look, I am a married man. I’d be a lying if I said I never bought a lacey-frilly thing as a present for my wife. My issue, and the vast majority of those I have spoken with, isn’t about the clothing. I have no problem with the massage lotions or smell-good candles. These are what I would expect in a “boutique”. My issue is with the “adult videos and more” the owners have plastered on their front window, becuase I have done the research, and know what they mean by “and more”.
I appreciate the invitation to join the fray over at your blog. I may perhaps take you up on it.
Moon-howler, I would welcome the opportu
October 6, 2010 at 7:54 am
Elena,
I don’t not mention you by name, in my condemnation of the comments, out of respect, but those made about you and others, as well as the women who are opposing the shop are beyond the pale. I can and do disagree with you on much, but you and the rest of these ladies are wives, mothers and daughters. I uniformly condemn these comments. If someone were to make them about the ladies who are closest to me….well, let’s just say I am a bit old-fashioned in that regard.
I would welcome the opportunity to sit with you and Mrs Moon-howler, and discuss my positions as well as yours. I do believe that true progress can be made when opposing sides can meet. I’m already committed to a beer-summit with Mrs. Stevens, and possibly CindyB. Coffee, beer, wine summit perhaps?
October 6, 2010 at 7:56 am
Check this out, Steve. The store is called “She Bop” and it has been in the historic district of Portland, Oregon for a year. The owner is from Maryland, has been to Manassas, and says “Good to hear there is a female friendly boutique trying to open there.”
According to the owner, there are no zoning laws in Portland regarding sex shops so it was up to the landlords. They were turned down by 5 different landlords due to the nature of their business and the landlords not understanding the concept because they had nothing to compare it to.
The current landlord is fine with them. He got several calls once people heard they were opening in the neighborhood, but hasn’t received any calls since they opened. The owner says, “I think once people saw what we were all about they were not so threatened. The neighborhood has actually been really cool and most residents are happy to have a shop like ours nearby.”
The owner says they have women and men from 18 to 80 come into their shop. They even have doctors referring patients to them for different sexual health issues.
I don’t know if KK Temptations will be like this shop in Portland. It’s not open yet! My point is, give them a chance to open without all the pre-judging.
http://www.sheboptheshop.com
Have you even spoken to Kim Skokan? I have. The red flag of PORN went up first thing, and that has framed the debate ever since. Del. Miller understands my opinion on how that could have been handled in a better manner. There is nothing wrong with healthy human sexuality. It is everywhere in our family friendly Old Town.
October 6, 2010 at 7:57 am
Root beer, please.
October 6, 2010 at 8:38 am
Cindy,
Bargs or A&W? I’ll let you know when
October 6, 2010 at 9:10 am
Let’s see…30 brands of root beer born in Virginia…just kidding. Anything’s fine, just so it’s bottled, not canned.
October 6, 2010 at 10:11 am
I’m happy to either host the summit or simply participate or neither!…:)
About the book: I’ll have more info next week. It appears to be self-published so you can’t buy it on the web.
October 6, 2010 at 10:52 am
Beer Summit:
Andy I would like for you to be there…You just never know WHAT OTHER issues might come out or be solved with this summit.
Busy Saturday, Sunday this coming weekend…Supposed to be busy this Friday, but I can “nix” those plans. My next open Saturday is not until November 13th.
October 6, 2010 at 11:05 am
Steve, you don’t have to call me Mrs. Moonhowler. It makes me sound like someone’s grandmother. 😉
Moonhowler is fine. I will even go with MH.
All kidding aside. I dislike hard core porn movies a great deal. I had heard those films were on the website and I also heard that I was ‘aghast’ when I saw the titles. I never saw them. I wouldn’t have been aghast, probably just fairly disgusted, shrugged it off and moved on. As long as they weren’t illegal I would have just thought not my cup of tea. I would object to anything underage or implying it it was underage, even if the adolescent sluts were 40 years old. I hope that clarifies my position. It almost sounds like we agree, at least in taste. I also believe Larry Flynt is nasty.
Having said that, I feel that bridge building works better than vilifying. If the community cuts off communication by labeling Ms. Skokan a pornographer, which I do not believe she is, I think it would be reasonable for her to get her back up. However, if Cindy went in and said, “just as a suggestion, I wouldn’t carry that title here” is a lot more likely to keep those kinds of movies out of Old Town.
I do applaud you for establishing a dialogue with those of us who want to give KK’s a chance. It seems like we have a variety of reasons. My invitation stands. There are actually quite a few people there who you might have some common ground with. We love our Rs and our TPPs.
October 6, 2010 at 11:07 am
Andy, that is some power brokering for sure. Is it just for City folks?
Nettie sounds like a busy lady!!!!
October 6, 2010 at 11:14 am
Cindy, you keep saying to give this shop a chance as if the only way to know what is going to be in it is to go inside it. I disagree with you there. Mr. Thomas has stated that he got his impressions about this business from things that were posted on its website. I can only assume those things were placed there by the owner because she intended to sell those items in her shop. It makes no sense to have a website advertising her new shop and place unrelated items on it. That is not smart business.
Mr. Miller did not choose the description of porn from out of the air. He arrived at that after viewing these items on the website. I have yet to hear anyone who favors this shop acknowledge the fact that prior to the uproar, there were items on the website that many would consider objectionable, porn even, and that after the uproar those things disappeared from the website with no explanation. It appears to me that had it not been for the uproar, those items would have remained on the website and been prominently displayed in the store. It appears the pressure has caused the owners to either rethink their original plan or to hide it from the public until the uproar dies down. If they have reconsidered it, I am very grateful to them. If not, then there will be another uproar in the future. Either way, I am grateful for the pressure.
I am one of the many people who doesn’t mind lingerie or massage oils but really, really does not like the idea of adult videos being sold in this store. My first husband had an issue with porn, and it was devastating to our marriage and to my self-esteem. I do not oppose art. I don’t favor book burning. I am not a prude. But I do object to the objectification and humiliation that so frequently accompanies the viewing of pornographic materials. I just wish one person who favors this shop would acknowledge that as a valid concern rather than treat it as an irrational fear of lingerie.
October 6, 2010 at 12:29 pm
I already have, Patty.
I wouldn’t be willing to call something pornography based on a title. I would have to be familiar with the contents. I am not.
Nor have I seen a website that would prompt me to use that nomenclature. Frankly, I was misrepresented so I have no choice but to think perhaps Ms. Skokan was also.
Before I get too persnickety about adult movies that show sex scenes, I should probably look at some of the titles on my HBO channels. Good grief, Big Love and Boardwalk Empire show people having sex.
October 6, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Regarding Ms. Skokan and her website….I am taking the approach that possibly, just possibly, the original website was created before she knew all the limitations by Code. Then, after being informed of them, has now taken the approach of complying and only selling what would be within Code.
She may not known the limitations of the City Code, given for one, she was not told about the ARB and the Sign Ordinances in the Historic District. For that matter, there are not a whole lot of City residents who know what is in the Code either.
This approach I take is no different then my almost 2 and 1/2 decades of the US Army and my young charges (Officer & Enlisted alike). There is a SNAFU, ok, here are the rules…now fix it. At this moment in time, it would appear she has. Then as now, time shall tell.
October 6, 2010 at 1:42 pm
If you want to attend the summit, please email me: andy@harrover.com.
Limited to 7-9 people of which 5 spots are taken: Nettie, Cindy, Steve, Andy and Moon.
October 6, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Mr. Beverage,
Considering that anything sold on the website would not be subject to city code, I doubt that was the reason for Ms. Skokan quickly taking it down. I am more inclined to think it was the uproar from the public, and her desire to not provide any additional PR Ammo to those who oppose her shop. I also have her original Intuit business listing, and the associated meta-tags she, the owner of the site, had to put in to link her business with the various search engines. These were some pretty vile words she wanted to use to have her site returned with search engine results.
October 6, 2010 at 2:40 pm
MH,
Big Love, the Sopranos, even the playboy channel dwell in the world of “soft-core” porn, where various acts of intercourse are implied, but not actually shown, whereas the the hardcore varity would show the actual genitalia, oral, anal, or whathaveyou contact, and potentially the ubiquitous “money shot” of actual ejaculation. The images of the box covers that were displayed on the original site leave no doubt in my much-traveled military mind as to which variety they originally intented to offer. To make matters worse, there was no age verification to view this and other stock images beyond a statement to the effect “by entering this site I certify that I am 18 or older”. I do know from conversing with a few council members that they also checked the site, and can attest to the accuracy of my statements. We can keep rehashing this, or we can agree that originally, the owners intended to sell things that most of us would deem “pornographic”. Whether they contiue to plan to do so, remains to be seen. As I have said, this is my primary objection. Nothing against the things one would find in a “boutique”. I would not classify MVC is a “boutique” either. They sell videos. Hardcore videos. KK’s was going to sell them too.
October 6, 2010 at 4:04 pm
Here’s a thought…did ANYONE…EVER think about asking her (instead of trying to run her out) if she would tone it down? Or was/is that against the rules…it has to be all or nothing? Just curious!