You probably won’t see this in the paper but we had another gang fight between the Bloods and the Crips last weekend. One of the participants was injured enough that he had to be flown to FFX hospital. Last I heard he was in a coma. This is the second incident between those two gangs in about the last month. Let’s hope that it doesn’t escalate to gun violence.
We also had a failed drug deal on Monday afternoon where the guy on the losing end wound up being shot twice. Evidently the guy got robbed by his dealer. My friends on Facebook are having a field day with this one. They’re the ones who titled it “Welcome to the Jungle”. They opening stanza of that song is becoming more and more accurate:
“Welcome to the jungle, we got fun ‘n’ games
We got everything you want, honey we know the names
We are the people that you find, whatever you may need
If you got the money, honey we got your disease”
See this earlier post about the first gang-fight.
In a bit of mixed news, one of the gang-bangers who killed an OHS student last year in a gang-hit-gone-wrong is currently on trial. According to the paper, he has admitted that he stabbed the kid. Let’s hope the Commonweath’s Attorney gets this one right and doesn’t cut a sweetheart deal as they have done with other high-profile cases lately.
Does anyone still believe we have too many police officers and need to face the problems as they lay or am I just cranky today?
March 24, 2012 at 12:04 am
Scott,
While this guy does not live in the City, the accident took place in the City. He has no license and attempted to leave the scene. I think it’s a safe bet he is an illegal alien. http://www2.insidenova.com/news/2012/mar/23/3/man-charged-manassas-hit-and-run-ar-1783865/
March 24, 2012 at 11:02 am
The City Council should engage the services of a lawyer with a prosecutor’s mentality, and find ways to go after the illegals, not lawyers who get a six-figure sinecure to support the ‘caretakers’ who do nothing but blame ‘the fed.’
Instead, these weak politicians hide behind “Oh, we tried something once…” referring to their misguided lawsuit of a few years ago which was ill-advised, badly handled, and stupidly settled.
There are a variety of regulations that could be passed, ‘little ones’ like creating fines — and collecting them! —for a variety of issues, or larger regulations like impounding cars for a variety of crimes (at least until the case is resolved in court…then it is the bad guys who don’t want a delayed court system), which will disrupt criminal practices, etc. etc.
The problem is the mentality of inaction that prevails among the City’s officials (I almost said ‘leaders’…)
March 25, 2012 at 8:25 am
Charles, you say the lawsuit was stupidly settled. Why do you believe that we would have prevailed in federal court?
March 25, 2012 at 9:17 am
There are a variety of items being worked on by the ZORC in terms of civil actions for various Code infractons….eventually, they will come out and before the Council for action.
But I’m curious also on the view concerning the lawsuit, and also how to balance local Charter Sovereign Authority against that darned ole Dillion Rule.
March 25, 2012 at 10:05 am
Rich, It was the wrong issue, at the wrong time, with the wrong lawyers. It should never have been brought, and then, it should have been settled immediately. Of all the issues which could have been brought, why such an esoteric one with so many vague opportunities for liberal groups to raise issues and threats?
The City Council also spent tens of thousands of dollars trying to stop a sex shop…in violation of the Constitution (regardless of what one thinks of having a sex shop downtown). How did that work out?
The next issue should be focused on a winnable matter, not a philosophical feel-good issue. The City officials pander to the public, and don’t focus on the feasibility of legal actions. Instead of shooting from the hip so they can hear a loud bang, they should take careful aim at a specific target…with a good shooter (i.e. lawyer).
March 25, 2012 at 10:34 am
Charles, good observation on the lawsuit…thanks. If one so chooses, one could look back at the Council Minutes of that time or news articles, and see how the cast of characters played that one out.
Your point on wasting time and money is a good one – look at the time consumed over the Crematorium issue. In the current Council Agenda packet for Monday, there is an e-mail from Roger Snyder (former Economic Development for the City prior to Liz Via-Gossman). He writes: “I appeal to you as elected leaders with wisdom and discernment….Approve the crematorium….and move on to more important issues.”
Wise words indeed…
March 25, 2012 at 12:44 pm
@Charles: you are, of course, welcome to your opinion but not your own facts. The Council spent a couple of hours of lawyer time checking out the “Sex Shop” issue. It was clear from the outset that it was a legal business and there was jack we could do about it. What we did spend $80k on was a thorough re-write of the ordinance that governs all manner of adult businesses and where they can locate. Frankly, it should have been done years ago as the city urbanized. The City code needs to evolve just as the City evolves but nobody wants to spend any money on it so we end up doing it in the most expensive way possible – 1 litigated piece at a time.
As for the Federal lawsuit, there seems to be some confusion. We didn’t initiate that lawsuit. Jackson Miller took the lead on the “definition of family” law and the Council unanimously passed it. Whatever you believe about that, the definition of a family is indeed at the heart of the issue……We were almost immediately sued and, after some consideration, worked to settle the suit. You seem to take issue with how long it took to settle but these things just don’t go that quickly.
I’m open to suggestions for a “feasible issue”….
@Ray: I don’t agree with you that the time spent on the crematory is wasted. I certainly don’t agree with Mr. Snyder that this is somehow unimportant and, as a former City employee, I’m a little surprised he would dismiss the residents concerns out of hand in such a manner.
March 25, 2012 at 8:53 pm
Andy,
My own facts? I guess it depends upon how you folks on the City Council do your accounting, and how you bury various costs, and what costs you ascribe to different categories. “A couple of hours of lawyer time” you say…. Talk about “your own facts.” It all began as a legal matter to stop the sex shop!
I seem to recall that legal time, and a lot of consulting time (from a group in Texas, if I recall, Hudson, or something…), and a lot of time of members of the government and City Council were spent on the issue of the sex shop. The result was months of free advertising for the sex shop, and a little shop that could have lapsed into oblivion received free advertising and was promoted throughout Northern Virginia and Washington, DC by the Manassas government.
Paying $80,000 to write an ordinance…? My goodness…
March 25, 2012 at 10:01 pm
com and Charles Sutherland
I am happy to see that someone has some sense. What is it about these people that want to keep apologizing for illegals? Their BREAKING THE LAW every day! Mr Sutherland I wish you well in your campaign for school board. City council might have been a better place for you, where you, Carman, Lovejoy, and Aveni could fight the good fight against these illegals. their the ones bankrupting the city! AND, once we’ve got control of council we can finally shut down that abortuary and save lives too. Why has this taken so long? Our city has been too easy on them and illegals since Mr. Miller went to the statehouse. We need him back! Like you said, these ‘laws’ that keep us from rooting the illegals out of the schools and the city are just excuses the liberals use to keep their lawns taken care of cheaply. com, when you hired a company to work for you you could have gone further than the day labor question and checked the ids of anyone ‘suspicious’ that proves their able to work legally. Let’s not be coy, we can tell pretty easy whos illegal or not. This is America, and we can choose to hire only who we want to. Also COM, your idea to just bulldoze GTS and deny illegals housing seems logical to me. Think of the return on investment that would give us. Heck, the rest of the city would throw a party! How much could it cost? What are there, like 100-150 townhouses there? Once the tax payer fed bonfire of our dollars in the schools is extinguished, I’ll bet it is entirely doable. And don’t forget the ones across the street! New ordinances and fines on illegals will work only if we give them the chance. Once their caught and proven illegal, the feds have to take them. They let them in in the first place! Mr Sutherland, your investigations of the schools must continue if we have any hope of turning this around, and prosecutions of all who stand in the way of reason must be supported until we’ve cleansed the city of illegals and other undesirables (godless liberals and RINOs, beware! lol) . You’ve already uncovered 13 kids who couldn’t provide birth certificates last year, there must be more. Why are the schools hiding this from you? What else are they lying about? Before we found and joined our homeschool network, it seemed like half the kids in our city classes were illegal. With the new state law, we also look forward to getting back involved with the sports programs at schools. Tuition grants might be considered too. It’s only fair, I pay my taxes. One thing though, I didn’t totally understand what you said about the carloads of kids at bus stops and out of state plates at the schools. That can’t be legal? What can we do about it? Aren’t the police paying attention? In addition to being on school board can you also serve as legal counsel for the city? I’d want a lawyer like you fighting for us. Like Mr Carman has said, councilman Aveni needs help to keep these ridiculous lawsuits from being settled without a fight. principal is important! Sorry if I’m a little passionate about this, but I think there’s a light at the end of the tunnel this year. Porn mongers, illegals, bike paths, and ballet should no longer be what our town is known for. Feel goody tax and spenders better wake up and smell the tacos! Theres gonna be some new sherrifs in town in May, and not a moment too soon.
March 26, 2012 at 5:31 am
T.J. Moore,
Thanks. Someone told me once that the City should hire me to be an ombudsman, an investigator who reports to the public on what is going on. I agreed with the concept, but said the City politicians and school officials don’t want the public to know what’s going on. You may have read the recent national survey of public corruption: Virginia is Number 47 out of the 50 states (…out of 57 states if you believe Barack Obama’s counting…) And Virginia received an “F” in ‘Public Access to Information.’ Sound familiar?
We’ll see what happens after the election, and what we can do to help turn things back to a responsible ‘law-abiding’ society. As you say, hopefully Lovejoy and Carmen can join Aveni on the City Council so that fundamental values can become respected… and implemented…once again, before this country implodes.
March 26, 2012 at 8:29 am
Good grief. I hardly know where to begin. For all your grand plans to stomp out illegal aliens, check your surrounding neighbor to the north, south, east and west. Look at the mistakes of PWC.
Look at the cost. Look at the end result. Put your money into something YOU have control over. Let’s see…that would be increasing your law enforcement. Hire enough people so your uniformed officers don’t have to sit around and do paper work. Get as many cops on the street as possible. Disturb the comfort zone of those committing crime.
I shouldn’t say that because once you do that it will all come right over the “border” into PWC. Since crime doesn’t pay much attention to municiple boundaries, maybe it is time for the city and county to start working closer together.
Looking at all this from as an outsider, you guys need cops and fire trucks.
Some of the comments on here must come from people who missed the PWC debacle. Regardless of how you see right and wrong, there are laws in this country. You can’t just go racing into schools and grab records. You can’t bulldoze property you don’t own and you can’t abuse civil rights. That kind of talk is unproductive and solves nothing.
March 26, 2012 at 8:44 am
Sutherland: It is easy to tar something as corrupt when you feel your wishes are not met. Does the city have an ombudsman position? You complain about $80,000 for an ordinance. That probably included staff time to prepare, a lawyer to review, city council time to present to the public. A lot of people got up in arms and gave the place free advertisement and you got the ordinance to prevent it again in the future. Since the furor has died down, I wonder how their sales are going?
And you want the City Attorney to become prosecutorial? Anyone you want for that position will have to be very smart and capable. Smart and capable is expensive, not like hiring a recent graduate from law school. By the way, I thought the position was more advisory then legistative since the council is suppose to handle that.
AndyH: Most laws are developed out of the most expensive way. Criminals and smart people will always find away to twist around existing law. Look at the tax code of the US for example. Each law arises as circumstances evolve.
TJ: Just because someone drops off their kids at school in vehicles with out of state tags do not imply illegals orsome other nefarious implicatiions. Please note that we are near Quantico and Fort Belvoir. Active duty personnel usually retain the vehicle registration in their home state but can legally enroll in the local schools. Do not want to tar with to wide a brush. P.S. They’re helping defend us from the barbarians at the gate.
Expectations for an instant change may be a little over the top. Ordinances need to be tightened but changes take time and money to implement. The more lawsuits the City becomes in over these will mean that we will have to be willing to pay more taxes. I know you won’t object since it is going for a good cause.
March 26, 2012 at 9:51 am
Moonhowler,
What mistakes did PWC make? I think it’s clear, except to those that support illegals they did a great job in driving some out. As far as I know, the County was not sued, did not have to defend the law in Court or to the Justice Department. No lawsuits that I’m are aware of have come out of people who feel they have been singled out due to their race and or skin color. Sure, there was a lot of jumping the gun from those that support illegals as to what the County would turn into, how only certain people based on their color or race would be singled out, etc. All of that of course has been proven to be wrong. You can voice your opinion, but do not make it appear you opinion are facts.
Local, State, and even the Federal Government have the right to condem property, so once again you are wrong on that point. If the City does that is another question, but they do have the right to do it. Nobody has said anything that would violate any civil rights.
March 26, 2012 at 9:59 am
Andy, on my comment and Roger’s statement: Given the low number of total residents who have commented either to Council or here, my view on wasting time is based on after sitting there in chambers listening to all the evidence, reading the background paper, and then the Council defers it for two more weeks to “see an objective opinion”….after all the evidence and even VA DEQ what is one not to think but another delay just for some to avoid having to make the logical decision?
I know Roger fairly well. Had several discussions with him back in late 90s when I was fixing to hang up my Army Spurs and start a business. Also worked with him on the Manassas Senior Day Program Task Force in 2007. Roger is a fact-based guy, and always offers a solid opinion in my experience. His credential as having been the guy sitting in the chair Liz occupies now gives credibility to his statement….Roger worked to make Manassas “business friendly”.
I agree with you Council should take the time to listen to us Citizens out here; that is part of Council responsibility. Council also has the responsibility to make the decision when all facts are in place. I do appreciate you at least saw the facts and the logic when the Council voted to defer. May the others be wise tonight and approve it….by the way….
There is a larger threat to each and every building in this City regarding a dangerous gas that is also an ambient chemical every day in our City. Fortunately, every building of every form has a black pipe sitting in it reducing the threat – but that gas is in much higher quantity every day, every day then the level of merc going to come out of the crematorium.
March 26, 2012 at 11:14 am
Mr. Moore,
Begging your pardon sir, but some of the things you and others propose are flat out lunacy. You have no clue as to what is legal or illegal for governments to do, and affording them is another matter entirely. I can already hear lawyers lining up to file the lawsuits. Expensive and embarrasing lawsuits. The people representing municipalities on city councils and school boards should reflect the values of the citizens who vote for them. I believe that the elections run here are fair, and if a majority of the voters who show up on May 1st choose to elect the folks you support, then shame on us. I refuse to believe that we’ve reached a point in Manassas where the preponderance of the eligible voters would agree with some of the inane proposals you refer to. From abolishing the revenue sharing agreement, demanding that the police to interrogate people not involved with breaking the laws of the commonwealth, to demolishing private property, not one of these should be able to gain traction in our fair city. Tuition grants? What, exactly, are those? Unfortunately, we often get the government we deserve, whenever apathy leaves important decisions in the hands of a small minority. Voters of Manassas, please make sure that you’re available May 1st to resist these efforts that will inevitably grind all progress to a halt, ensure protracted battles between the council and board over everything from personnel decisions and where the school buys pencils, to which kids are allowed to be educated. Good grief. Wake up Manassas!
March 26, 2012 at 12:50 pm
@COM,
The county didn’t drive anyone out. To suggest that it did offends me.
No one has ever figured out how much the county really spent preparing for their resolution. We used to have a criminal alien unit. Where is it now? Is it intact? the county didn’t sustain the things it bought and paid for. To me, that is a waste of money. The county also altered its plan. That is probably the only reason they weren’t sued. Everyone arrested has a status check.
Perhaps the most frustrating aspect of the county efforts, although Corey Stewart has been able to put it to good political purpose, is the fact the county has no control over ICE. Once there is an ICE detainer, ICE is under no obligation to report back. That was the reason I suggested that the City spend its money on things that it controlled.
No, governments cannot just seize property without due process. I can see that you still are offensive. I won’t dignify the civil rights comment with an answer.
March 26, 2012 at 1:01 pm
Moonhowler,
I still see you are defending illegal aliens, now after what has happened the last two years, that’s offensive. Where did I say there could do it without due process? It’s a high crime area, not producing the tax revenue it could, those are two valid reasons for the City to take those steps. Redevelopment has to happen in that area before the City can move forward.
The County did nothing wrong, and as a result of their action has made a huge difference. Just because you are not a fan of what they did, does not mean what they did was not successful.
March 26, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Ed Spall,
Lawyers lining up? Maybe the lawyers are already lining up? I also found Charles’ proposal of hiring “one lawyer” laughable! I think the citizens of Manassas should recruit scores, hundred of lawyers to clean up this city. Oh, oh, and maybe a really good CPA or two.
March 26, 2012 at 4:15 pm
Scott,
It’s interesting that you would use the word “corrupt,” since I did not use it. Hmmm…
What’s on your mind?
And, $80,000 for an ordinance… For a city of this size, that’s outrageous by any standards. And, do you really think Andy “included staff time to prepare, a lawyer to review, city council time to present to the public” when he came up with that figure? Did you, Andy? This would be the first time the City Council exhibited such expertise in detailed cost-accounting. For Scott’s sake, how much was paid to the lawyers? How much to the out-of-state consultants? Please let Scott see the numbers. (I’ve seen them…)
I’m not blaming Andy who may have been caught up in this moving train wreck of foolish litigation and the paid-by-the-hour procrastinating lawyers. I’m blaming you for instinctively attempting to justify any (tax-payer money) expenditure by the ‘old boys network,’ just as you attempt to exonerate anyone who justifies illegal aliens.
As for Moonhowler: The most accurate thing you said is the name you gave yourself.
March 26, 2012 at 4:48 pm
@Ed Spall
I don’t know what planet you live on. How long have you lived here and do you even have kids in the schools? Do you not see that in almost no time we went from around 10% hispanic to now about 50% hispanic in the schools? That’s why we got out. Mr. Sutherland is counting, even if you’re not. You know most of them are illegal, or children of illegals. And you prefer to choose and do nothing? You apologizers are all the same, refusing to take the steps it takes to just get rid of them once and for all. Tell me how they deserve America, after sneaking in illegally? Killing nuns, stealing identities, painting vile message billboards in Liberty Street, etc etc. are just fine with you, aren’t they. I think you’ll be in for a surprise when our candidates win out over the losers you have elected in the past. Let Sheryl Bass have her write in vote, it won’t be enough. There are more of us than there are of you, and I resent our lunacy. You are the one who has no idea whats legal or not. State law says that children must have a birth certificate and if they don’t the police must investigate. Your ignorance of the law is embarrassing. You just plan on crying in your coffee after the election when our side (the right side) abolishes the revenue sharing agreement, and investigates that $100,000,000 gold plated budget the schools plan on burning through. Do you really think it takes that much to educate 7,000 kids in Manassas? My estimates are that 30% is wasted or spent on illegals. Don’t you know it takes a third more money to educate someone who doesn’t speak english? Then more tax dollars are wasted on ‘snack attack’ food and social services for illegals. I bet we can use a lot less buses, too. Their only full of illegals, and parents that really love their kids drive them to school so they don’t get ganged on in the buses. Get ready for some change, I hope you’re ready for it.
March 26, 2012 at 8:09 pm
Oh COM, I see you are still acting silly. Still got that whine-on over your illegals, I see. Whining doesn’t solve problems.
Perhaps you might want to see why PWC sued to get information that they could not get from ICE. It isn’t defending anyone. I said it to warn the City to put their money in things they can control. I have not problem with the way things are set up now. I had a problem with probable cause.
Also, if you are going to set up programs, it probably helps to keep them funded. Where is the Criminal Alien Unit in PWC and what is its function? It seems to have disappeared off the map.
I don’t live in a county where individuals are ‘run off.’ The economy altered the demographics somewhat. But no one ran off anyone.
Charlie, hopefully you won’t embarrass the City of Manassas by winning whatever it is you are running for. What was that, dog catcher? Hooowwwwlllllll!
March 26, 2012 at 8:20 pm
Moon,
The only one acting silly is you. So, if nobody was run out of the County, why did you and other supporters of illegals whine and cry, and act like typical liberals to the County Board of Supervisors when they were considering taking steps to make the County a safer place? The County has one of the highest per capital incomes in the entire Nation. So much for the yarn you illegal alien supporters like to say economies would fall apart without them.
March 26, 2012 at 9:32 pm
COM,
Perhaps you ought to look at the county resolution real carefully before you show what you don’t know. Whining didn’t get that current recolution in effect. Who do you think supported the current resolution? How do you think it came about?
You are just trying to be offensive. Andy usually doesn’t allow bullying on his blog. I guess he is elsewhere. Who ran someone out of PWC? That sort of sounds like a pogrom. Surely you didn’t mean that? It didn’t happen. This is the United States.
You are free to believe me or not about the problems the county has run in to. You don’t remember the law suit that the County filed against ICE? it wasn’t that long ago.
March 27, 2012 at 6:12 am
Mr. Moore
Seems like we’re just not going to agree on some things. Fair enough, it’s a free country, and apparently most folks here on this blog agree with you. Looks like I’ve got some shoe leather to burn until the election. Thanks for the idea of a write in vote for Sheryl Bass, I think I’ll take you up on that one. I’ve lived in the city a long time and I do have kids in the schools. Unlike you, I haven’t done a study on what illegals cost the schools, but since I lack clairvoyant abilities I can’t tell by looking who is illegal and who is not. I’m sorry you’re upset about the percentage of ‘hispanic’ students, but am even more saddened that you, Mr. Sutherland, and others use that word interchangeably with ‘illegal’. They are not one and the same. But I’ll leave that one alone for now. Free country and all…
In the meantime, I’ll do my best to spread the word that there are candidates for local office that desire to abolish the revenue sharing agreement, check birth certificates as a pretense to spur investigations of kids and their families who’ve done nothing wrong, promote ‘tuition grants’, and want home schoolers to pick and choose what they want from the system. None of which I feel are wise, and will only distract us from the work that needs to be done. We’ll find out in May if the electorate agrees with you, me, or somewhere in between. Regardless of the outcome, my family and I will be living here and doing what we feel is necessary to make it a better place. Free country and all..
March 27, 2012 at 6:51 am
Moonhowler,
The only thing I’m attacking is your opinion that what the County did was wrong. There are fewer illegals in the County today then before the resolution. The cry from your side was that people were going to be mistreated. That also has not happened. So, the only thing you can do is claim someone is attacking you.
Ed Spall,
I’m not fully aware of the law, which is a State law, however, I do believe the reason why there is follow up on cases where there is either no birth certificate or a copy, is because most likely that family is here illegally. The City is just trying to follow State law, and did not pull this law out of a hat. People who do not pay their full share of taxes should not be able to take advantage of our school system.
March 27, 2012 at 7:40 am
COM, I doubt very seriously if you really know what MY side did or didn’t do. I doubt if you really know what MY side was.
Do you think it is right to form a unit and then fail to keep it fully funded?
How many illegal immigrants were in the county before? How many now? Real numbers please. You might want to say something other than the county ran people off. They “RAN” off no one.
You are shooting off your mouth and you really have no idea what I think or what my side was/is/will be.
Stick with what I say. Feel free to criticize. Don’t go digging up stuff from who you think I am or what you think I said or what you think I feel.
I am going to repeat my advice to the city. Put your money into things that you control rather than in things that you don’t control like something like a federal program.
Now COM, what in that statement would you like to debate? Be sure to tell these nice folks that you are stereotyping me and really don’t know what I think.
March 27, 2012 at 8:22 am
@Ed Spall
“check birth certificates as a pretense to spur investigations of kids and their families who’ve done nothing wrong” Done nothing wrong????? Being in this country illegally is WRONG.
March 27, 2012 at 9:26 am
If I remember correctly, Ed was a class officer for the Osbourn senior class of 1984. While I might disagree with some of his political views does not take away from his right to comment in this forum. I do not have any children in the school system but when or if I do, I want them to have a good school to attend. I am more concerned with the qualifications of the teachers and the leadership of the school administration to ensure a quality education in a well managed environment.
March 27, 2012 at 10:42 am
Howler and Ed…love you guys!
The rest of you….I’m not going to go back and see who wrote what but what I’ve read, I’m putting in my 2 cents.
You can’t just demolish a house because an illegal lives in it…jeesh…talk about communist!
Sometimes we forget that leaning too far right or left puts us in the communist category.
Birth certificates…I agree, they should have to produce one. Heck, I had to when my kids went to school. HOWEVER, do we want a bunch of kids breaking into our homes during the day because they have nothing to do? So we will need more police to “babysit” those who might not be in school. However, at this point, most of those who are in school are most likely US Citizens and don’t speak english because their parents don’t, although I don’t know that to be fact.
As MH said, spend the money where we can make a difference. If ICE isn’t doing their job, we’re stuck. So go for the blight to run them out or straighten them up. Have more police to do that…POLICE.
How one feels as a citizen and how one acts as a political office holder should be different…why you ask? Because if you are in a position of power and you are wanting to do stuff that is 1. Illegal 2. unconstitional….we’ll be in for more lawsuits and I don’t want you as a politican in my town. We’ve had enough of that already and he’s still ‘causing us to spend money to shut him up.
So before you hold a political office you should read our constitution and study it hard as if it were your bible, to ensure you TRULY understand it. At that point You might just understand why our fore Fathers wrote it. UNTIL such time, you might want to reconsider running for office.
Another thought…we’re all gonna die regardless of what we eat, breath or drink THAT is a fact. AND we are living longer TODAY then our past generations…I don’t know if we have more diseases or just different ones.
And quit poking each other in the eye, would ya…Jeesh (I know, right?!?!?!, sometimes I’m the worst offender when someone starts in on me! LOL)
March 27, 2012 at 11:23 am
Not so sure that our Forefathers had illegal aliens in mind when they wrote the constitution. However, I agree that there are very few loopholes the city can use because while they are within the borders of the United States, illegal aliens are granted the same fundamental constitutional rights granted to all Americans. Including that all children, regardless of their immigration status, are entitled to free public education. Like it or not the courts have ruled in the favor of illegals time and time again making our situation more difficult.
March 27, 2012 at 11:41 am
@Nettie,
“Another thought…we’re all gonna die regardless of what we eat, breath or drink THAT is a fact. AND we are living longer TODAY then our past generations…I don’t know if we have more diseases or just different ones”.
PLEASE, you CAN’T be serious? That sounds like something my chain smoking grandfather would have said. Of course we are all going to die but what we eat, breath ,drink and our exercise habits all play a MAJOR role in how long and well we live THAT is a fact.
March 27, 2012 at 1:15 pm
Moon,
I’m not sure of the exact numbers, but there are fewer illegals in the County according to Cory Stewart. But, if they were not run off, again I ask why did your side whine and cry about people that were going to be singled out because of their skin color or race? Sure Local Governments are limited in what they can do, but to do nothing is pretty stupid, or to not do something because people who support illegals will yell racism is just as stupid. What the County did is what the City should do. What the City should also do is study what other Cities, Counties, States, etc have done, focus on the measures that have stood up to legal reviews, and put into place those measures.
Nattie,
The Supreme also ruled at one time that slavery was legal. What the Supreme Court said a number of years ago may not be the same thing today. So, if illegals are entitled to a free education, does that mean I don’t have to pay taxes to pay for the school system? Or, do you want a different system for illegals and non illegals?
March 27, 2012 at 1:21 pm
Nope…They gotta procedure, pill OR App for that! OH…I guess us smokers think alike! But wait, MY granddaddy, dipped snuff, drank beer and ate McDonalds Cheeseburgers and fries (his favorite), ate pie and ice cream lived to be 96. Then there are my great grand mothers who lived to be 98, 1 aunt 97, 1 uncle 96…my momma, breast cancer survivor without chemo, diabetic, other heart aliments, still kickin’ it at 86…but Alzhimers took my daddy too soon 78…so I believe it’s mostly genetics and where/when the good Lord wants to take me. So you have your belief and I have mine and possible…”never the twain shall meet”.
March 27, 2012 at 1:34 pm
@COM…Were you there then? Sounds like it! Because I know I had no control over what the supreme court did or said over 100 years ago, nor did I witness it, nor did I own slaves. They also had no phones, computers or cars…only Horse “Stuff” to shovel, which sounds like you’re still doing.
OH and BTW the name is Nettie…Ms. Stevens if you’re nasty! (Thank you JJ!)
March 27, 2012 at 2:44 pm
I’m certain our forefathers did not have illegal aliens in mind when forging the constitution. However, the wondrous and unique system they came up with guaranteed people, all people, certain rights. They believed all were entitled to those rights, whether they were legal residents of America or not. (well, ok, they had that African origin exception, but we fixed that part) Those long ago wise men fashioned the guideposts that they wanted us to live by and most will agree that it’s worked fairly well. Now, Americans have tested the boundaries of these rights over the years on more than one occasion, and it’s often been based on fear. Fear of ex slaves, fear of rebellious factions, fear of communists, fear of criminals, fear of terrorists, and the list does go on. But to manage those fears by ignoring constitutional rights is simply not allowed. Our courts serve to continually define the limits of those rights, and in the case that cost us many dollars, Manassas found that just defining family as they saw fit was outside the boundaries. We weren’t rounding people up and shipping them out, but that’s what some are suggesting we do. I believe we’d find that it is unlawful to start ‘investigating’ folks who aren’t accused of a crime. A missing birth certificate probably is not enough for a grand jury. Manassas police can charge you with many different crimes, but they simply do not have the power to arrest you just because of your residency status. We cannot ask our professional police force to become the ‘illegal hunters’ when doing so violates the rights guaranteed in the constitution. Suspicion and evidence are two different things. Suspicion takes no effort, gathering evidence does. At what point, when chasing these children, would you say, ‘I guess there just isn’t enough evidence’.
Now, do I believe that some illegal aliens are doing something wrong? Sure. Are there American citizens doing things that are wrong? Sure. If the police catch them, bust them. We can’t all agree on what’s right/wrong, but the courts do decide on what’s illegal. Innocent children in our schools aren’t doing anything wrong by being there, illegal residency or not. After all, since the one self appointed investigator discovered a grand total of 13 students without birth certificates, (were they ever proven to be illegal residents? it’s not been disclosed, perhaps they had no birth certificate available for some other reason) how big of a problem do you think ‘illegals’ really are in the schools? Suppose the police did follow up and went to the house and the parents told them that they’d rather not discuss it? That’s kind of the end of it, legally. You can’t break down the door and ask for ID papers. That would be wrong and illegal.
I just couldn’t let Mr. Moore’s comments slide, especially after one candidate for office responded, but said nothing about the tone of Mr. Moore’s comments. I used the word lunacy, but others will disagree. I guess Andy doesn’t have to comment on everyone’s posts, but if it was directed to him I’d like to think he’d say something like, ‘Mr. Moore, do you ever think to yourself, I’m just a big bag of hot gas?’
The election is May 1. Those who care will perform their duty, and we’ll go on from there. The world will not end.
March 27, 2012 at 2:56 pm
COM, school numbers really don’t bear that out. What I think really happened is that the building stopped and lots of young men moved on in search of work. But that’s just an opinion from looking around this end of town and seeing who left and who stayed and reading school stats.
Actually what I did was to make a suggestion to your City. You can disagree with it. That’s fine. You are free to pressure your City into getting in the program with the Feds. You won’t have any control over it.
If you put your money into more police on the beat, you can control what happens with your money. You can have your police disturb the comfort level of criminals. Isn’t that really what you want to do? If I were you I would want to cut down on crime. Nothing disturbs criminals more than lots of light and lots of cops around.
Or you can sit around and complain and offer up things to do that would land you in jail and the City in a legal entanglement. I don’t think anyone wants those things.
Oh one more thing…just as an aside, mind you. You might want to look at the PWC crime statistics rather than listen to Corey. He is a politician. They sometimes tell us what they want us to hear so we will vote for them.
March 27, 2012 at 2:57 pm
Hi Nettie!! How are things over there in the big city?
Talk Andy into another multi-jurisdictional summit again.
MH
March 27, 2012 at 6:35 pm
Ed,
There is a difference between an illegal, who is not supposed to be here and a Citizen, or legal resident. After how many crimes are broken by illegals, do you believe they should be removed? After they murder, rape? Do you believe they are a net positive for the City? Do you care that you are paying more in taxes then you should? That we have more crime then we should? That we have a lower quality of life than we should? Are you concerned that two of biggest stories to come out of Manassas in the last two years involved illegal aliens?
Moon,
I guess you did not really read my last post. I suggested the City look at what other Cities have done about illegals and copy what has passed legal challenges. The Feds are worthless, and in fact have removed money for the 287G program. obama would rather have millions of illegals and dead Americans as a result of so many illegals running like animals around the Country. But of course what do you expect from a guy who has at least two illegal family members in the Country. You are correct that criminals and illegals do not like seeing a lot of police and if we can make life harder for them, hopefully they will pack up and leave.
March 27, 2012 at 8:21 pm
@moon
I was in the thick of the PWC resolution and it was the supporters of illegal aliens that said they were run out of the county.
The housing bubble was caused in large part because illegal aliens were given loans that they should not have been given. That was also blamed on the resolution because a large portion of the illegal population was forced, because of the resolution, to leave the county.
I do have to say that since the illegal alien population knows that Our federal government won’t deport them they are moving back to the area.
Maybe HSM needs to be started up again.
March 27, 2012 at 10:16 pm
Hey there com, long time no see
I’ll bite. Here’s my answers to your questions
If someone is arrested and placed in detention, and is then discovered to not be a legal resident, they should be turned over to the federal authorities who have jurisdiction. Manassas can’t afford to be in the business of deportation, even if we had the right to be. If convicted of a crime for which they’ve been detained, they should serve their time in jail or prison. Rapists and murderers qualify. Grade schoolers don’t.
Do I believe they are a net positive for the city? No, but then I don’t believe loudmouths, jerks, or bullies are either. But sometimes our hands are tied.
Do I care that I’m paying more in taxes than I should? Not really sure that’s true. When I move into a bigger house with more land, my taxes go up. I don’t expect anything different. Can’t fight inflation, either. If you figure out how, let me know. My local taxes have been pretty flat for a while. City council has seen to that. They can’t please everyone, but I don’t have too many complaints on that front. I believe my federal tax levels are lower than they could be, considering we’ve got bills due for multiple wars, big tax cuts, and economic stimuli. But then, I have a good accountant. Would you like his name?
Is it your local property tax that bothers you so much? Which services would you like to see go away so that your taxes can be lower? Do you really believe that the Manassas government is that much less efficient than other local governments? Or that they charge that much more than another urban system? What services do you deem essential, and which are not? The city provides much less than they used to, and I think that affects my quality of life.
Do we have more crime than we should? I don’t know, but it’s certain that if it weren’t for all those damn criminals, we’d have less crime. Is all crime in Manassas tied to illegal aliens? I haven’t done the study. People without money commit crimes, people without hope commit crimes, and people who think they won’t get caught commit crimes. Does that only describe illegal aliens? The punishment for some crimes is prison (rape, murder, the biggies) The punishment for some crimes is not prison ( trespassing, being disorderly, leaving your child in the car all day). But I’m neither a judge, jury, nor executioner. Our system gets the job done, albeit somewhat slowly, and not always perfectly.
Do we have a lower quality of life than we should? Well, I don’t know what your metrics are on that one, but I find my life to be pretty good. My friends and family love me, and I love them. Everything else is pretty easy to deal with when I have that. Of course, if the car next to me is full of young guys with obnoxiously loud music for example, it does bother me a little. I don’t care if its mariachi, rap, or country. All are equally impacting the quality of my life at that moment, and I just wish they’d roll up the windows or play better music.
The two biggest stories to come out of Manassas in recent years involved illegal aliens? Are you referring to particular news stories, or the stories that the HSM crowd tell each other?
Listen, we’re all human, and when times are tough, there is a tendency to look for a scapegoat for everything that goes wrong. Pinning the housing bubble on illegal aliens is an example. I believe it likely that there are at least 1000 native born folks for every one illegal alien who hosed themselves with a mortgage they couldn’t swing. But then, I haven’t done a statistical analysis of the issue. I’ve got better things to do. I’m helping pay our way out of it whether or not I stomp my feet over it. Some folks just don’t recognize the power of compounding interest. Better schooling could help that.
I’m only four generations removed from my ancestors setting foot on these shores. My Irish and Italian forebears were denigrated and discriminated against by the WASPs running the show back then in ways that echo today. Don’t honestly know when or how they became legal. Maybe they never did, but their anchor babies and decendants were in the clear. In three generations more, these Hispanic folks will be complaining about the next bunch. And since the majority will have been born here, they’ll also be voters.
I’m all for the freedom of anyone to protest, say what’s on their mind, own guns, or hate illegals. Just don’t ask me to support legislating against a group of people you don’t like. Save your hate for the Cowboys.
I was raised by parents with a strong belief in God, and with the belief that there’s a little bit of God in everyone. I take the saying ‘whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me’ to heart. In time, I hope you will too. There is redemption in the word, and that’s a fact.
And hey, a shout out to Scott who remembered me from high school. Not sure which Scott you were, but hope all is well with you and yours! I can’t remember, but did the locals blame the non legal resident boat people for everything back then?
March 27, 2012 at 11:46 pm
Ed: We graduated together and Andy is a common friend. Blaming all the evils of society on one group is divisive. Whether it is a bunch of Neo-nazis or OWS crowd, it is wrong. Immigration is a federal issue. Elect officials to Congress who will support the law and hold the executive branch accountable. The problem starts at our border and coastlines. Like most people who come to this country, the boat people wanted to improve their lot in life. I remember working with a bunch at Merchant’s in the 80’s I do not think most of the recent immigrants are that much different. I remember getting my car serviced in Jiffy Lube in Warrenton. While I was there there was a young mother teaching her kids to count and do their alphabet in Spanish and then she proceeded to do it all over in English to them and her husband. Do they seem to be threat to the fabric of the nation? Looks to me that they were being an asset. Just three generations ago on my Dad’s side in the 1880’s, My great grand parents were immigrants from Norway. This land was built on the promise of a dream. I do not approve of the way that they came here but unless we want to built massive jails with child care centers then we need to find a better way. We need to stop the influx and deport that element that is proven to be divisive. Also, we need to reform some of our institutions that give them an incentive to come here such as SNAP and other benefits programs.
Housing bubble was driven by greed by all parties (sellers, buyers, real estate agents and bankers) and over-expectations that home values would keep increasing. They have occurred in the past and will probably happen in the future. Take a look at American history and you can see it clearly in different markets. I do not think the bubble in 1929 was caused by illegals or the tech bubble back in the 1990’s. There was an economic depression in the 1850’s in this area, I wonder what caused that?
March 28, 2012 at 6:54 am
Ed,
That’s pretty funny. Since you do not feel as if you are paying too much in taxes, care to offer up more? You sound like the typical liberal, who complain about taxes not being high enough, but when asked if y’all will pay more, never do. You do realize that students who are in ESL classes cost more to educate than non els students, and graduate at a much lower rate than non els students. Fewer illegals means less money being spent on schools, which means a lower tax rate. I’m not an accountant, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night Also, tax cuts is not an expendenture, since the money is our’s and not the Government. Banking on future income is stupid. In fact it’s a pretty safe bet that we could have saved millions by not having to build Mayfield if not for the number of illegals.
Sure, we have crime. But how much less would we have with fewer illegals? At least six murders, far fewer DUI’s, domestic, etc, and every other single crime committed by illegals. So if that number is 10, 20, 1oo, or whatever, less crime is better. I believe the Police have turned over more than a 1,000 illegals to ICE in the last few years. That’s a huge number of criminals for a City of our size. But, I guess according to you, that’s just dandy because our hands our tied.
Do you want to see people hanging out in parking lots looking for a job? Nobody is saying that if we did not have illegals we would have no crime, etc. What we are saying, and yes I’ll offer up a compounding example too, is having fewer illegals means less of all of that. From overcrowding to people hanging out in parking lots looking for a job, though I’m sure we would still get white coller job seekers doing that, just not as many. For a guy who seems to believe you know it all, why settle? Why not look for ways to make our City better?
I now see you mindset, yes you did indeed bite. Happens all the time to people who say they are against illegals, but in the end, think they are being smarter than everyone in the room, and in the end look pretty foolish. Illegals can be of any race or ethncity. Why do you assume only hispanics can be illegal?
No, I do not rely on HSM, I rely on the Regional and National news, maybe you missed the gang killing in the fall of 2010, and the murders and hacking of people last year that was committed by an illegal alien. Maybe you should get out more, or look beyond your own yard.
Scott,
Now, be honest, how often, when you are out and run across an obvious hispanic family, do you hear them conversing in English only or even a little in English? I only ask that because you seem to make that a key point in your argument. I will offer to stand with you outside of any major store and even go with you around the City and listen to what we hear. I think maybe you won’t because you don’t want to be proven wrong.
Twenty years ago, we did not have to dial one for English either. But that’s a different story.
March 28, 2012 at 8:20 am
COM: I never said it was a common occurrence but it has happened. If you want to meet some where than we can arrange the time. Probably best to have AndyH mediate that for us. What store do you recommend? I am not the shopper in the family so I am usually in and out as fast as I can.
March 28, 2012 at 8:41 am
@COM
No need to bring Scott to a store just swing by one of our public schools. A few months back I had to wait in the front office of a MC elem. school. I was there for 10 minutes before a word of English was spoken and it came from me! The greeter, children, parents and the person working in the office ALL spoke Spanish to one another.
March 28, 2012 at 8:51 am
Four: The staff should speak English or try to communicate that way first. Cannot assimilate unless you can communicate.
March 28, 2012 at 9:07 am
@Scott,
I agree. I think what bothered me the most were the students speaking Spanish to one another. When they are in school is should be English only.
March 28, 2012 at 11:06 am
COM, et.al.:
What course of action do you recommend to rid ourselves of illegal aliens?
March 28, 2012 at 4:06 pm
com, com, com,
Call me liberal if you want to, but I prefer radical moderate. You like the terms typical liberal, and think they ( a group into which you’ve lumped me, without knowing me) all just want higher taxes. But we all pay whatever the IRS tells us we owe, and every year it’s a little more. When they tell me it’s more, I pay it, even though I don’t agree with how all of it is spent. If you take me for some survivalist militia man who argues that the gov. has no right to collect my taxes, or that I complain when they go up, you’re wrong. Anyone who does not pay their taxes when asked is a tax cheat, and when caught should pay the piper. I pay my taxes. I would venture a guess that many illegals do too. If it’s witheld from their pay, they may not even file for the refund.
It’s been ten years years since the decision was made to build Mayfield. The large growth in student population we’ve seen over that period was at that time trending upward . It later picked up speed, but the community had recognized already that one to two schools or expansions were going to be necessary, ( or install a good number of trailers, which was an option) and the school board followed the recommendations of a large public forum to have a Mayfield. I remember it well, not only because all the boxes I checked were approved, but because it was an orderly and civil bit of democracy.
Educating kids who are LEP or ESOL obviously must cost more than for an english speaker. How much more? I’ll take your word that its a third more. But if they’ve got their birth certificate it’s a moot point. But are there other children that it is costly to educate? I have no experience with special education, but if a student requires an aide each day, I bet it costs us more than the extra third that ESOL costs. I’m absolutely not suggesting that an aide not be supplied, just pointing out that ESOL and special ed are both items that push the average cost per student up. Can’t imagine what a special ed student that is also LEP or ESOL costs. Regardless, according to one recent estimate, no more than 13 students couldn’t cough up a birth certificate, so the vast majority of the kids are legal and the law says we’ve got to educate them, not investigate how many of their relatives are not legally resident.
Crime. How much less crime would there be without rednecks in Manassas? Hard to say, but it would be less. Unfortuneatly, there isn’t a legal way to identify redneckery, but when they are arrested and go to jail, we’ve eliminated them as a problem for as long as they are behind bars. In a like fashion, we can’t legally identify illegal aliens until they are arrested and behind bars. However, as long as the feds take them, we’re not turning them back out in the street like the rednecks. Please explain to me how it is that our hands are not tied? I don’t say that that is best, but I do say there are lines that can’t be crossed when attempting the ‘identification’. I never said it was just dandy because our hands are tied. I don’t write the laws.
I do remember the gang killings and hackings. Afterwards, no more than 14-15 folks spoke before council to ask for/demand a policing change. Do you remember the underwear store? There were people lined up out the door of chambers to speak against it. All were big stories, but you can see what really shook up the citizens.
good day
March 28, 2012 at 4:39 pm
Ed,
Yes, it’s a sad day when folks are more upset about a few frilly things (WHICH I believe someone called them PORN MONGERS! WOW!) then the slaughter of an ALREADY BORN human being… Why isn’t there 40 days of THAT on 234!?!?!?!?! hmmmm?!?!?! NOPE, it’s alright to kill the living…I guess is their philosophy.
March 28, 2012 at 7:22 pm
Ed,
Yes, you are the typical lib, you say you don’t mind paying taxes and believe they are low, however, when it’s suggested why don’t you put your money where your mouth is… it’s funny. You don’t even need to wait for the Feds or the State to tell you to pay more, they will gladly accept more if you send it in.
Again, a Citizen has a right to be here, illegals do not. When was the last time a “Rednick” killed someone here in the City? I know what the answer is, but would you such an ethnic slur to discribe a minority? Of course not. You obviously know nothing about Rednecks, like illegals, but it does show you small-mindedness. There was plenty of outrage over the illegals running wild. Unless of course you missed the gang summit, and other meetings. Special Ed students, who are not illegal also belong here. Illegals who are paid in cash are not paying taxes. More than one illegal family with kids living in a single family home, that produces only one real estate bill are not paying their fair share.
Nattie,
Yes, it’s an outrage after illegals have killed close to a dozen people in this area in the last couple of years, and we still have people defending illegals.
Andy,
We should look at what other Cities have done, pick the ones that have passed legal chalenges and try to impliment them. We need to have on street parking restrictions in neighborhoods where overcrowding is an issue(something that was discussed at the last summit), and continue to have the police enforce traffic and other laws.