I’m an IT guy so, even at my advanced age, I’m still up with all of the “in” technologies and cool kids. At least that’s how I see it. My daughter may beg to differ but I’m not asking. I like facebook and twitter etc, etc, etc.
In any event, one of my most prolific friends on Facebook is someone we’ll call “The Big D”. The Big D is pregnant and has to visit the restroom several times every night and she sometimes shares her frustration on Facebook. The other morning when she was up early she noticed a helicopter ambulance landing at Osbourn – the second in 24 hours and put that up on her Facebook wall. I thought that was odd and was going to contact our Fire Chief about that when I recieved an email from our interim City Manager:
Turns out that there was a gang fight and someone was stabbed badly enough that they required an airlift. Now, some might assume that this was a beef between local kids or an MS-13 thing. It wasn’t. It was a knife fight between the Bloods and Crips. That’s right. A knife fight between the OG crowd that started in LA, right here in Manassas. Is this what things have come to?
I didn’t win the Mayor’s nod at the Republican convention but I believe in my message of schools and public safety and I’m taking it to the wall. I’ll post more details in coming days about both. I took a lot of heat from more conservative folks about spending more money on Police but I don’t regret it for a second. In fact, I think we need to turn the heat up on these scumbags. That may or may not require adjusting were we spend our money but a new approach is needed.
Between this and the schools, is this the kind of place you want to live in? Enough.
February 11, 2012 at 3:54 pm
We might not read about that but the N&M did report there was a shooting down in Dumfries where the suspect has a history with gangs and was charged in connection with a gang flight last year. What happened isn’t exactly clear but it sounds like it started as a group of teens fighting at Gar-Field HS, then the same group fighting in the parking lots at Potomac Mills Mall, and then they moved to Dumfries to fight again and that’s where the shooting took place. Doesn’t say if these were two gangs or just two groups fighting for some other reason.
I have a different reaction. Woodbridge, Manassas, Fairfax, Alexandria, Arlington and other places in NOVA have become urban. Gangs are a fact of urban life as is violent crime in general. A sign of the changing times and it’s not small-town Manassas anyone. Just throwing the cops at the problem isn’t solving the underlining issues.
To fight gangs, you must first understand why people join gangs. There are social and economic reasons at play that the cops alone can’t do anything about. A brochure on the MCPD website about gangs (http://www.manassascity.org/DocumentView.aspx?DID=3276) reads in part: “Young people join gangs for reasons that make sense to them, even if not to adults. They give reasons like these: To belong to a group, for excitement, to get protection, to earn money[, and] to be with friends.”
I once attended a talk given at a Weems Neighborhood Watch meeting by the MCPD Detective on the Northern Virginia Gang Taskforce. It was quite enlightening. He explained how the MCPD is tough on gangs to the point of enforcing every last law against them, including the anti-spiting in public law. In addition, he said there are gangs that live here but commute to places like Washington, DC to terrorize those communities but don’t try to do stuff here in Manassas because they know the police reaction here is so strong. In addition, he claimed the Taskforce was working so well in NOVA in general that some gangs have moved into other areas where isn’t a similar taskforce but he was quick to say that wasn’t necessarily a good thing since while there may be less gangs in NOVA, other areas now have to deal with those same gangs.
My point in all this is simple: We must strike gangs in more ways then one. The MCPD may “turn up the heat” but unless we do more that may just move the problem out of Manassas and into another community as the Detective explained. That is not the whole answer. Instead of the stabbing in Manassas, it may be in Fairfax, which isn’t solving the problem. Any goal short of no stabbings anywhere is unacceptable to me.
So want is my answer if I say police aren’t the sole answer? Well everything I learned while getting my BS and from the cops outside the classroom tells me we should correct the reasons we people join gangs. I quoted some of these reasons in my second paragraph. My vision would be the MCPD, social workers, parents, businesses, the MCPS system, the Community Development and Neighborhood Resources offices, and others actively working together to fight the reasons why people join gangs. One way might be to create a City anti-gang taskforce (or board, committee, or commission) along the lines of the Gang Response Intervention Team but focused just on the City or to just expend what GRIT does already. Together all the involved groups would work to address whys we could try to find ways to address the problems in peoples’ lives such as unemployment, feeling of insecurity, and etc which leads them to join a gang. Simply put, if the City and community members (mostly community members since they could do more then the City I think) work together to make it so people don’t feel they need to join a gang to correct their problems, there won’t be gangs since no-one would join them.
However, that being said, it is somewhat realistic to expect to solve everyone’s problems. There is only so much the City can do and it really depends on how willing the at-risk people would be to work with the taskforce or whatever and the community members (including their parents) trying to help them. The best I think we can realistically hope for to reduce gangs, not entirely wipe them out. Like with illegal booze or drugs, even with legal options available, there will always be those who choice the illegal option. Furthermore, like I wrote earlier, gangs will always exist so long as there are social and economic differences exist and the City can’t really fix those things.
Finally, I just to add that I’m not disagreeing with the idea of an expansion of the MCPD’s anti-gang unit and hiring more officers in general given this idea and how some people what more foot patrols. That would certainly help the fight against gangs in Manassas. All I’m really trying to say to also go beyond just that which can help fight gangs in more then just Manassas.
Please consider this, despite its length, when forming your anti-gang plan.
February 11, 2012 at 5:35 pm
PS It seems N&M reported on a stabbing involving gangs in the City: http://www2.insidenova.com/news/2012/feb/10/manassas-man-charged-after-overnight-stabbing-ar-1679189/
From that and the official press release (N&M more or less just copied the MCPD press release) it sounds like this stabbing was just two guys fighting and one stabbed the other one, not a full on gang battle, but the stabber was involved with gangs.
Was there this stabbing and then another during a gang battle or is this the stabbing mentioned here?
February 11, 2012 at 8:40 pm
Ohh, I’m first to suggest….. more B&G Club buses, more street cleaning, more out of town groups coming in to paint fences. Yes, I’m being sarcastic. Prior to moving back to Virginia, I lived in Florida, in a town about the size of Manassas, and it too was near a larger City. We did not have gang issues, we did not have crime issues. So, we should not just expect to have to put up with such issues, just because. Gangs are here because they feel they can operate here and because we have cheap housing, that’s not to say the Police are not doing a good enough job. What we need to do is make it so that we are not a destination for illegals, gang members, etc. Major redevelopment has to occur. We need to get rid of lower income housing, etc, which will drive out the gang members and their families.
February 11, 2012 at 8:53 pm
Wow…how come this isn’t reported in the news? This stuff is important for our community to know is happening. I am already uncomfortable going out to the store or mall in the evenings and avoid it at all costs. This incident drives home that my fears are warranted.
February 11, 2012 at 11:03 pm
COM,
I agree fence painting and the like is not the answer to gangs. Especially when its out-of-town groups doing it. I’d like to City folks doing those things in their own neighborhood but that’s an issue for another thread.
Could you please share more about that FL town? I’m interested in learning more to see how similar or different from Manassas it is. Particularly, I’d like to see demographics and their crime rate. A link to their town website will do if you can please provide a link.
Don’t take this the wrong way your comment reminded me of what a retired Fairfax County Sheriff’s Deputy who I had as a professor said about folks down in Williamsburg where he lives. He said they think there are no gangs in Williamsburg and they’re all up here in NOVA and he never wanted to tell them that are gangs there too. Not saying your wrong, but there could have been gangs in your FL town too but weren’t as well known. Hard to say without knowing more about the town.
I do, however, agree that no up should just put up with gangs or crime “just because”. It’s pretty much impossible to wipe out gangs or crime for social, economic, emotional, and other reasons but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take action against gangsters and criminals. All I’m saying is that there will always be some crime and gangs in the world regardless of what we do to try to stop those things.
Someone can correct me on this, but aren’t there several Federal laws that make eliminating low-income housing illegal? No need to get HUD and the DOJ investigating us (again, remember the first housing fiasco in the City?) not to mention the lawsuits (I’m sure at least the ACLU would take their cases for free) from all the people that would be kicked out of their homes. It would wouldn’t solve drive out the gangs anyway. Not just the poor join gangs and commit crimes (for one, remember Justin Wolfe and his drug ring anyone? They weren’t exactly living in low-income housing!). Do a Google search for “middle class gangs” or “upper class gangs” (neither in quotes when doing the search) and you’ll see tons of stuff. As an example, allow me to quote from the Memphis Police Department’s Organized Crime website on gangs (http://www.lunanet.com/memgang.htm):”Contrary to popular belief, gangs are not just restricted to youths from disadvantaged and low income areas, many middle and upper class youths are also involved in gang activity. In addition, gangs are not just comprised of African-American youths, gang members represent all racial and ethnic groups.”
February 12, 2012 at 12:43 am
For those who really want to learn about gangs, here’s the FBI website on gangs: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs
Highlights from various parts of the site:
“The FBI established the MS-13 National Gang Task Force (NGTF) in 2004 to coordinate the investigative efforts of federal, state, and local agencies against MS-13 gang targets. MS-13 members and associates have been identified in 42 states and have a significant presence in Houston, Los Angeles, New York City, and Washington, D.C. ‘”
“[As of 2011,] there are approximately 1.4 million active street, prison, and outlaw motorcycle gang members in more than 33,000 gangs operating in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico. (Those numbers reflect an increase from 2009 figures, due primarily to more comprehensive reporting from law enforcement and enhanced gang recruiting efforts.)”
“Gangs are responsible for an average of 48 percent of violent crime in most jurisdictions and up to 90 percent in several others.”
From an interview an FBI gang expert” Q: Any words of advice on how to steer young people away from gangs?
A: Yes, two things. First, one of the attractions of a gang is its strict discipline. With that discipline comes structure and limits and a sense of security and belonging. That’s what we need to offer to our young people as well—just in a positive way. We can’t be afraid, as parents and teachers, to provide structure and discipline to our children and students. I think the government can help by delivering funded programs that our young people can turn to—especially when there are problems at home—to feel safe and to belong. These programs should be 24/7, just like the gangs are. Second, on a more general level, all of us—parents, educators, community leaders, elected officials, law enforcement—need constant education about gangs and gang trends. Gangs are forever changing—we need to keep up.”
Also the entire FAQ from the National Gang Center is a good read and you can explore the rest of their site via the tabs on the left hand side: http://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/About/FAQ
Please take the time to explore the FBI and National Gang Center websites. You’ll learn so much about gangs in general, why people join gangs, who gang member may be, and possibly everything else you ever wanted to know on gangs!
February 12, 2012 at 12:57 am
On second thought, I have one highlight from the National Gang Center’s FAQ I want to highlight for those who might not click the link (Sorry to double post but there’s no edit button.):
“Gangs tend to cluster in high-crime, socially disadvantaged neighborhoods (Thornberry et al., 2003). Gangs become established—or ‘institutionalized’— when core social institutions function poorly, including families, schools, and economic systems (Moore, 1998; Vigil, 2002). Moore (1998) outlines four community conditions that often precede this transition. First, conventional socializing agents, such as families and schools, are largely ineffective and alienating. Under these conditions, conventional adult supervision is largely absent. Second, the adolescents must have a great deal of free time that is not consumed by other prosocial roles. Third, for a gang to become established—if not fully institutionalized across generations—members must have limited access to appealing conventional career lines, that is, good adult jobs. Finally, the young people must have a place to congregate—usually in a well-defined neighborhood.”
COM, I’ll give you partial credit. Yes, gangs do pop up more in low-income areas. But its not just because they are low-income areas. Its because of the other factors at play including broken homes, bad schools, lack of honest work, etc that often do hand-in-hand with low-incomes areas for a variety of reasons I won’t go into here but are not limited just to low-income areas. Just getting rid of low-income areas as you proposed won’t solve the problem since there are bigger things at play here.
February 12, 2012 at 10:46 am
Well, now I know what Michele, COM and Andrew, none of whom are running for office, think about this. I’d most like to know what the various candidates who are running for office think about this. Seems like the bigger the issue, the louder the candidates’ silence. One might consider this a real disconnect between campaign talk and dealing with reality. And the candidates’ response is …?
February 12, 2012 at 11:35 am
Glad to see that MJM reports…more than I can say for the Patch. I wonder if they will brush this under the rug like the MCPS administrators nailed with a DUI?
February 12, 2012 at 1:30 pm
Raymond,
Yes, there are gangs in many different neighborhoods. However, in our case, they do seem to be in just a few areas, mostly GTS. They spill out from there. So, we should focus on those areas that are known gang breeding grounds. Everyone knows where the problems are, but the question is as Rich says, do we have the political will to attack this issue once and for all? Otherwise, we’ll see an even larger exodus of people we can’t afford to lose.
February 12, 2012 at 1:31 pm
Here is a link to the City I lived in. http://www.city-data.com/city/Dunedin-Florida.html
February 12, 2012 at 1:40 pm
“Seems like the bigger the issue, the louder the candidates’ silence. One might consider this a real disconnect between campaign talk and dealing with reality. And the candidates’ response is …?”
The only thing I could think of adding to Rich’s comments were the quotation marks. (but give me a few seconds…)
February 12, 2012 at 7:06 pm
Note that the agenda for tomorrow’s council meeting
is on the City of Manassas website.
It includes:
– Introduction and appointment of the new city manager.
– Consideration of a resolution to budget 88K to prevent further
deterioration of 9300 Prescott.
– Reading of one ordinance to adopt a Manassas City Fire and Rescue
Fleet Plan and a second one to implement it.
– Continuation of a public hearing on construction of 14 townhouses
at 9910 South Grant Ave and following, a vote on the request.
– And, of course, the Magnificent Belly Dance SUP.
Promises to be an interesting evening.
February 12, 2012 at 7:54 pm
Responding to a requested response from a candidate regarding gangs: Contrary to what Mr. Beverage says, it is not our responsibility to clean up the world, or even feel guilty that we forced the bad guys out of town and they fled to Fairfax. Our responsibility is to curtail gang activity in Manassas.
Agreeing with Mr. Beverage (or at least with national studies, which have been going on for decades): people join gangs (a) for a sense of identification and belonging, if they don’t get emotional comfort or recognition at home or in school; (b) a source of income, if they cannot acquire legal jobs; (c) a source of power, by joining a group which can intimidate people more than “the joiner” can do alone; (d) a source of excitement, if their home lives are boring; (e) a sense of fulfillment and ‘a cause,’ when gangs have plans to fulfill – even if those plans involved robbing a liquor store next week. As Eric Hoffer explained in his classic book, ‘The True Believer,’ people join a cause to provide themselves a sense of meaning and fulfillment which they are missing; if the cause succeeds they feel gratified, and if the cause fails they blame the magnitude of the endeavor and the world at large.
How to stop gangs: In Omaha where I grew up, the “bad kids” were those who stood on a street corner and smoked cigarettes. Yet, even they were stopped by “the cops” and told to go home. There was very little crime, almost all of it from ‘outsiders.’ Why? First the laws were strictly enforced; second, the parents were required to participate in school activities and coordinate with the teachers; third, the judges held parents legally and financially responsible for the misconduct of their children, including paying all administrative and court costs and costs of incarceration (my aunt worked for a judge at the Douglas County Court House, so I saw the routine); fourth, the churches preached and acted against bad behavior, and did not give aid and comfort to delinquency by blaming society and ignoring personal responsibility, and the Saint Vincent de Paul Society (which my father headed for a while) provided temporary food and clothing – and helped the family find work, or the assistance ceased so other families could get that help; fifth, “drifters” (non minors) who had no employment were picked up for vagrancy and taken to the local employment office to apply for a job, and if they were repeat offenders they were charged with vagrancy, jailed, or persuaded to go elsewhere.
Here in Manassas what is to blame? (a) An egotistic school hierarchy which issues counterproductive mandates to principals and teachers, causing problems with education; the same hierarchy recruits students from outside of the City, tolerates misbehavior (creating a climate of permissiveness), and violates the state law by not requiring original birth certificates (as a result over 50% of the student enrollment are Hispanic, and 41% are in the ESOL language program because they can’t speak English… and Manassas is 1,000 miles from Mexico!); (b) the schools have no mandatory parental involvement in education; (c) low cost housing to attract an indigent population, demographically prone to crime; (d) tolerance of minor crime – which provides an atmosphere of permissiveness; (e) no E-verify or other regulations regarding ‘off the books’ employment of illegal aliens – which violates national laws and again creates an atmosphere of illegality; and, (f)a permissive judicial system. All of these promote crime and are magnets which attract criminals, and a tsunami of illegal aliens.
The illegal aliens add to the millions of dollars of annual costs of education, police department, Adult Detention Center, the court system (including the need for translators and interpreters and Spanish-speaking lawyers), social services and medical services, food stamps, etc. Illegal aliens have no choice except to turn to crime to financially survive, and they recruit younger and younger assistants – to expand their gangs.
To summarize, gangs emerge for several reasons. Parental negligence is a major part of the problem. (The “village” does not seem to be working out very well.) And, as Mr. Beverage pointed out, so is a permissive society, with poorly functioning core institutions; in the case of Manassas that includes an inept school hierarchy (which inhibits education) and a weak City Council. Together they have turned the City into a sanctuary for illegals, both home-grown and alien. The Bloods and the Crips are both predominately African-American gangs from L.A., specializing in drugs – and attracted to where profits can be made! Illegal aliens have no choice except to turn to crime to financially survive, and they have become the infantry of the drug cartels. Because they make money speaking Spanish, they have no need to learn English. A brief look at the Manassas police reports tells us who are committing most crimes, and why. A glance at the FBI statistics illustrates that the drug transport routes from Mexico to the eastern US has Manassas as part of the route. The drug dealers need illegal aliens (and others) in Manassas to distribute their products. One doesn’t need a course in psychology to understand why the ethnic gangs are expanding. The writing is on the wall: and it’s written in Spanish.
Charles Sutherland February 12, 2012
February 12, 2012 at 8:04 pm
(Re-posted with proper paragraph spacing…)
Responding to the requested response from a candidate regarding gangs: Contrary to what Mr. Beverage says, it is not our responsibility to clean up the world, or even feel guilty that we forced the bad guys out of town and they fled to Fairfax. Our responsibility is to curtail gang activity in Manassas.
Agreeing with Mr. Beverage (or at least with national studies, which have been going on for decades): people join gangs (a) for a sense of identification and belonging, if they don’t get emotional comfort or recognition at home or in school; (b) a source of income, if they cannot acquire legal jobs; (c) a source of power, by joining a group which can intimidate people more than “the joiner” can do alone; (d) a source of excitement, if their home lives are boring; (e) a sense of fulfillment and ‘a cause,’ when gangs have plans to fulfill – even if those plans involved robbing a liquor store next week. As Eric Hoffer explained in his classic book, ‘The True Believer,’ people join a cause to provide themselves a sense of meaning and fulfillment which they are missing; if the cause succeeds they feel gratified, and if the cause fails they blame the magnitude of the endeavor and the world at large.
How to stop gangs: In Omaha where I grew up, the “bad kids” were those who stood on a street corner and smoked cigarettes. Yet, even they were stopped by “the cops” and told to go home. There was very little crime, almost all of it from ‘outsiders.’ Why? First the laws were strictly enforced; second, the parents were required to participate in school activities and coordinate with the teachers; third, the judges held parents legally and financially responsible for the misconduct of their children, including paying all administrative and court costs and costs of incarceration (my aunt worked for a judge at the Douglas County Court House, so I saw the routine); fourth, the churches preached and acted against bad behavior, and did not give aid and comfort to delinquency by blaming society and ignoring personal responsibility, and the Saint Vincent de Paul Society (which my father headed for a while) provided temporary food and clothing – and helped the family find work, or the assistance ceased so other families could get that help; fifth, “drifters” (non minors) who had no employment were picked up for vagrancy and taken to the local employment office to apply for a job, and if they were repeat offenders they were charged with vagrancy, jailed, or persuaded to go elsewhere.
Here in Manassas what is to blame? (a) An egotistic school hierarchy which issues counterproductive mandates to principals and teachers, causing problems with education; the same hierarchy recruits students from outside of the City, tolerates misbehavior (creating a climate of permissiveness), and violates the state law by not requiring original birth certificates (as a result over 50% of the student enrollment are Hispanic, and 41% are in the ESOL language program because they can’t speak English… and Manassas is 1,000 miles from Mexico!); (b) the schools have no mandatory parental involvement in education; (c) low cost housing to attract an indigent population, demographically prone to crime; (d) tolerance of minor crime – which provides an atmosphere of permissiveness; (e) no E-verify or other regulations regarding ‘off the books’ employment of illegal aliens – which violates national laws and again creates an atmosphere of illegality; and, (f)a permissive judicial system. All of these promote crime and are magnets which attract criminals, and a tsunami of illegal aliens.
The illegal aliens add to the millions of dollars of annual costs of education, police department, Adult Detention Center, the court system (including the need for translators and interpreters and Spanish-speaking lawyers), social services and medical services, food stamps, etc. Illegal aliens have no choice except to turn to crime to financially survive, and they recruit younger and younger assistants – to expand their gangs.
To summarize, gangs emerge for several reasons. Parental negligence is a large part of the problem. (The “village” does not seem to be working out very well.) And, as Mr. Beverage pointed out, so is a permissive society, with poorly functioning core institutions; in the case of Manassas that includes an inept school hierarchy (which inhibits education) and a weak City Council. Together they have turned the City into a sanctuary for illegals, both home-grown and alien. The Bloods and the Crips are both predominately African-American gangs from L.A., specializing in drugs – and attracted to where profits can be made! Illegal aliens have no choice except to turn to crime to financially survive, and they have become the infantry of the drug cartels. Because they make money speaking Spanish, they have no need to learn English. A brief look at the Manassas police reports tells us who are committing most crimes, and why. A glance at the FBI statistics illustrates that the drug transport routes from Mexico to the eastern US has Manassas as part of the route. The drug dealers need illegal aliens (and others) in Manassas to distribute their products. One doesn’t need a course in psychology to understand why the ethnic gangs are expanding. The writing is on the wall: and it’s written in Spanish.
Charles Sutherland February 12, 2012
February 12, 2012 at 9:29 pm
Mr. Sutherland,
Please quote to me where exactly I proposed to “clean up the world.” I believe you have misunderstood my posts. What I’m talking about is City and community working together to try to encourage people to not join gangs or leave gangs. I also said the community would most of the work as their limits to want the City can, or ought, to do. No more, no less. By curtailing the gang problem in Manassas, we may help flight the gang problem elsewhere by making Manassas a place where you can’t recruit very many gang members. What I tried to say is at least it won’t be Manassas gangsters doing the stabbing in Fairfax. It’s up to Fairfax to deal with Fairfax gangsters. As I’ve quoted form both the FBI and the DOJ’s BJS’ National Gang Center and is found on many other law enforcement websites (including one I will link to in this very post), a general community and government reaction is needed to flight gangs which is what I’ve proposed in my taskforce or expansion or GRIT idea. Again, where did I propose to “clean up the world?”
I disagree with you with some of your comments on illegal immigration. Manassas is certainly not one of those “sanctuary cities” as you seem to suggest it is. Those are places where even the local government tells the police, and the Feds, to not enforce immigration law in the city which is certainty not the case in Manassas. I also strongly disagree with your apparent notion that ALL illegal immigrations always commit crime (I should add I fell they are criminals to begin since they entered the county illegally but how many other crimes they commit besides that is another matter) and join gangs. As Floria Department of Corrections (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/pub/gangs/) states, and I say this to COM as well: “Hundreds of these local gangs have been identified in every city from Pensacola to the Florida Keys. This includes small rural towns, upper middle-class neighborhoods, schools, and other areas where we tend to deny gang existence. ” Now this isn’t FL of course that first sentence doesn’t apply to VA but the same could be said of pretty much every city nationwide and the second sentence about how gangs exist in all walks of life needs to be remembered. Again not just the poor or illegal immigrants commit crimes. Some poor people and illegal immigrants commit crimes and join gangs for sure but the same could be said of every other income and demographic group.
In addition, these Bloods and Cripts may not be “outsiders” as you call them. As the FLDC website also explains local gangs “[evolve and adopt] an alliance with a national street gang such as the Bloods, Crips, or Chicago-based Folk Nation and People Nation sets and use their symbols and identifiers. This graduation in gang involvement often occurs in county jails, prisons, and juvenile facilities.” So those gang members may not be just from LA even tho the gang itself began in LA.
However, I do agree with your call for a structural change where parents are more involved in schools and their kids lives (tho not mandatory, I’m not sure that could be enforced nowadays), employers use e-verify and no-one hires illegal immigrants, no tolerance towards minor crimes (if you know the Broken Windows theory of crime, you know it says if minor crimes are tolerated, major crimes will occur next), and the community (parents, cops, community leaders, preachers, and the others you listed) all united against crime and gangs. Actually that last point is the same as what I said which you insulted, calling it an attempt to “clean up the world.” Only difference is that I call for a City taskforce or committee to help the groups interact with each other and the City government.
February 12, 2012 at 9:37 pm
I would like to join Rich, COM, and Doug Brown in asking for the thoughts of the candidates and current elected leaders on the discussion here even if I don’t entirely with them like with my response to School Board candidate Sutherland. As the FBI expert who I quoted earlier said, “on a more general level, all of us—parents, educators, community leaders, elected officials, law enforcement—need constant education about gangs and gang trends. Gangs are forever changing—we need to keep up” (emphasis added).
February 12, 2012 at 10:06 pm
Mr. Beverage, your statement is below:
“My point in all this is simple: We must strike gangs in more ways then one. The MCPD may “turn up the heat” but unless we do more that may just move the problem out of Manassas and into another community as the Detective explained. That is not the whole answer. Instead of the stabbing in Manassas, it may be in Fairfax, which isn’t solving the problem. Any goal short of no stabbings anywhere is unacceptable to me.”
My view, as I said, is that the purpose of the City of Manassas government is to protect the citizens of Manassas, not to accept the responsibility that “Any goal short of no stabbings anywhere is unacceptable to me.” (your words). That sure sounds to me like ‘cleaning up the world.’
Regarding your other points, I won’t quibble with your minor misunderstandings of what I said. For example, I did not say that the Bloods and Crips were “outsiders,” and I did not say that only immigrants commit crimes even though any student of demography knows the general statistics, and I did not say…never mind. I think we are basically on the same page, even though you want to argue. Good night.
February 13, 2012 at 1:50 am
Hi Mr. Sutherland,
You seem misunderstand my phrase. That phrase does not I want to “clean up the world.” That is meant to be taken in the context that we should do more then just work to where gangs aren’t just operating here, that we should we work to where gangs don’t live and commute to other places to commit crimes there as the Detective talked about at the talk I went to. Both options being unacceptable- gangs committing crimes here and gangs just living here- is want I meant by the phase. In my vision, the community, in connection with the City, works to limit all gang presence in the City regardless of whether or not the gang members commit crimes here by using the resources of the City and community to not only just arrest gang members but work at those at-risk of joining gangs, and assist those who want to leave their gangs. I also would like to see like effort primarily by the community (especially parents) with the City (possibly through the taskforce or board I suggested) helping to coordinate efforts and doing things the community can’t (like investing crimes). You could say I want to help to clean up Manassas, but not the whole wide world. I hope this clears things up and solves that misunderstanding.
I am sorry I’m understanding you so let me tell my thinking so you can, if you so choose, clearly what you mean and solve the misunderstanding. Your phasing regarding illegal immigrants in claiming “illegal aliens have no choice except to turn to crime to financially survive” can be inferred to mean that all illegal immigrations turn to crime since a determiner is lacking before the noun phase. I’m not trying to be “smart” by saying that, that’s just how and why I read that comment the way I did. I also didn’t say you said “only immigrations commit crimes”, I wrote back to you that it seemed to me that you claimed that “all” illegal immigrations commit crimes. I’m sorry my “all” could be misunderstood as an “only.” Maybe I could have phased that better to prevent a misunderstanding. Speaking of which you might also be interested in this article form the article form the American Conservative magazine on Hispanics and crime/imprisonment rates: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/article/2010/mar/01/00022/. It suggests the belief of Hispanic crime rate, of both US natives, legal immigrants, and illegal immigrants who are Hispanic, as being high is incorrect. Really good article overall (but does cite Wikipedia (face palm)) and a surprising read coming from the right.
I’m sorry about understood the thing about the Bloods and Crips. I was thinking in the context of your earlier remarks on “outsiders” and thought you meant they where “outsiders” from LA here in Manassas. Look back, I see my error and how the sentence does not necessarily mean that. The sentence is correct on its own and thinking with a clearer head I see I jumbled some contexts together. I apologize for that.
Mr. Sutherland, I agree we seem to be mostly in agreement tho our opinions on illegal immigrations and crime may be different. I do not wish to argue with you either but I do to wish resolve our misunderstandings at least to point where we know we implied.
But maybe we should just call a truce and not continue this discussion further and clog up Andy’s blog any more. Shall we just agree to disagree and not go on discussing what may/may not be inferred or implied so the comments won’t be closed by us just going back and forth :)?
February 13, 2012 at 6:07 am
Fine with me, Mr. Beverage. Have a nice day.
February 13, 2012 at 7:58 am
First off, Andrew, I want to apologize for calling your Raymond, I’m so used to your father posting…
I do have one question, if any kid is at risk of joining a gang, regardless of neighborhood, income, etc, why do you only want to work with the “at risk” kids? What exactly is an at risk kid? I would assume you mean any kid, given how you believe based on stats or otherwise. I found it interesting that you would use such a phrase given everything else you’ve provided in your postings.
February 13, 2012 at 10:15 am
The City of Manassas may not be an “official” sanctuary city BUT it certainly acts like one. Charles listed the many ways MC turns a blind eye and in doing so it is fostering illegals. Perhaps the mayor thinks this is a bad dream that he will wake up from but he, city council and the school board need to worry less about saving historic homes (that they don’t own) and PR. They need to focus on safety and the schools.
February 13, 2012 at 1:18 pm
Mr. Sutherland,
You have announced your candidacy for the Manassas City School Board. You have a number of solid ideas with which I am in agreement, including having informational handouts printed with Spanish/English translations line by line, as opposed to one side of the page English, and the reverse in Spanish.
However, as a candidate and potential school board member, you represent our community, and I would hope that it is only a minor mistake on your part that you continue to state the following: ” (Manassas) violates the state law by not requiring original birth certificates (as a result over 50% of the student enrollment are Hispanic) ”
While the data may show that over 50% of the student enrollment is indeed Hispanic, it does not logically follow that they are all illegal aliens. I agree that an illegal alien presence is not desirable , but to equate ‘Hispanic’ with ‘illegal’ is more than just a little offensive. If the intent of requiring birth certificates upon enrollment is to drive illegal alien children from the school system, I would argue that one sad byproduct would be to drive said children into the arms of gang recruiters.
February 13, 2012 at 2:47 pm
AMEN FourKidsnaDog! Quit spending “stupid” money on something you do not own. You will not get back your investment and especially on that property, lien or not, it is too far gone…Move along.
The City spent 70K+ to see how, what a shop sells, will impact the neighborhood …when liquor sales are just as bad, but someone thinks ladies underwear requires more restrictions. If you don’t want it, just say so and don’t waste our money on trying to convience people it’s bad. That money could have been spent on another police officer.
As I’ve told Andy before…”Security is baked in, not bolted on”. We keep trying to “bolt on” after the fact instead of baking it in and making it part of our everyday life. We need to teach citizens to look out for the little signs that lead to the big deals.
We need to have COPs on the streets, walking a beat…not sitting in their cars falling asleep, as has been witnessed on our street…in those areas where walking a beat is feasible and noticed…i.e. townhouse developments and apartment complexes.
Crooks are stupid. For instance…even after quite a few “to catch a predator” episodes, people still do it…You just can’t fix stupid…but you sure can make them pay.
February 13, 2012 at 3:27 pm
Pancho Villa said:
“but to equate ‘Hispanic’ with ‘illegal’ is more than just a little offensive.”
First, I believe you misrepresent what Mr. Sutherland wrote, he didn’t say there was a one to one correlation.
Second, Pancho Villa ?
February 13, 2012 at 3:31 pm
I do not know what the legal restrictions on the city are regarding the demolition of derelict properties. However, I fail to see the wisdom in spending further tax dollars on the Prescott Street house or any other private home. At one time it was a very cool old house, but if the legal owner will neither demolish nor repair it, lets be done with it without allocating further resources preserving it for them or posterity. Members of the council, how is preserving one house of no significant historical value on our dime in the best interests of the city? If the only arguments in support of preservation are that one day we’ll get our money back (with interest?) or that we want to preserve all the oldest housing stock in town, I’d say that’s not good enough.
February 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm
COM,
I got the language, and most of my idea of the City and community working together, the GRIT website (http://manassascity.org/index.aspx?NID=70) which uses that language but fails to provide a definition and I couldn’t find more on the City or County website. Besides that, it’s hard to come up with a definition that is suitable to use across all groups of people as gangs so any definition will still be kinda broad. Perhaps the GRIT coordinator should be contented and asked for their definition of “at risk”?
I do have a definition I came up today off hand for you however. “At risk” means a person who is known to have several characteristics that are known to increase the change of gang involvement such as being from a broken home, having limited family and/or peer involvement in his/her life, is unemployed and needs money, is from a neighborhood with known gang activity, etc and, either in addition to those characteristics or independently of those characteristics, shows signs of possible gang involvement which include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following (adapted from the MCPD gang handout I linked to earlier): the display of certain specific colors and/or hand signals, the display known gang signs on their clothing or property, the sudden gain of money, especially a large amount of money, without an explanation, a change of attitude towards others which may include violent reactions, becoming disruptive, and developing a disdain for authorities, a refusal to discuss his/her activities, a change in his/her peer group, lowing school performance and being absent more often then before, being connected by persons who refuse to identify themselves when asked and/or use uncommon nicknames for themselves and him/her, has frequent negative contact with the police, school officials, or other authority figures, is known to associate with known gang members, and/or the development of an interest in acquiring and/or carrying weapons for possibly unknown reasons.
It’s not a real specific definition but at least it’s something that can be refined. The way I look at it that it’s kinda like psychology where for they use a list of things for their disorders and if enough are seen, chances are a person has a certain disorder. That’s the same basic idea with my definition. Certainly any kid does have a certain amount of risk of joining a gang but he/she isn’t showing any sign of gang involvement and don’t have the characteristics that put them at a greater risk of joining a gang, I wouldn’t worry about them.
February 13, 2012 at 3:48 pm
Ms Stevens,
It would be nice if the tired old canard about throwing away 70k+ on a lingerie study gets tossed in the hamper. The city had no choice but to spend that money due to the past failure on the part of the city to take the proper zoning steps. Smart zoning is as important as smart policing for a city, btw more of either does not necessarily come with ‘smart’ as a descriptor.
February 13, 2012 at 3:51 pm
Folks if you are really seeing MCPD officers sleeping in their cars or otherwise acting in a matter unfitting for a police officer, I encourage you to file a complaint. Just follow the procedure listed here: http://manassascity.org/DocumentView.aspx?DID=502 and your complaint will be investigated fully and you can be involved and told of the results.
February 13, 2012 at 3:56 pm
Ms Stevens,
I do agree with you about the Prescott House, as do most people I speak with who are familiar with the issue. We didn’t elect council members to be real estate developers/house flippers. Now if the council wants to invite HTV to town to take over the job and give it to a nice needy family…
February 13, 2012 at 4:23 pm
I agree with Doug Brown! We should invite the people from one of the TV networks like HGTV to come and do a show about repairing it (using their own money of course) and then give it away to a needy family or some other group who could make use of it!
February 13, 2012 at 4:24 pm
(a) An egotistic school hierarchy which……{blah, blah, blah, among other things}… violates the state law by not requiring original birth certificates (as a result over 50% of the student enrollment are Hispanic, and 41% are in the ESOL language program because they can’t speak English… and Manassas is 1,000 miles from Mexico!);
While a valid point can be made that a large percentage of ESOL students is more costly to educate than non ESOL students, I do not see that as the point being stressed at all. While he does not state that ‘every Hispanic is illegal’, which would be an absolutely reprehensible thing to say, and he doesn’t establish a one to one correlation by so stating, there IS a complaint being made that the schools are violating a state law that results in a large percentage of Hispanics populating the schools. The stated correlation I see is that he believes that if A (schools don’t check birth certificates) then B occurs(a large percentage of Hispanics populate the schools) We’re all human, and sometimes we make mistakes. I just wanted to make sure that the candidate didn’t inadvertently make such a mistake.
February 13, 2012 at 4:37 pm
@AndyH: Welllllllll, if nothing else, this has been a good run on gang issues! Should provide ya with lots of material!
February 13, 2012 at 4:42 pm
@ Doug, I don’t think HGTV could even do anything with that place…I know the 70K thing is old (well only about a year and a couple of months) …but none the less still a reminder of how our council needs to keep on top of things Or how our managers within the COM need to bring these types of things to the attention of the council. ANYWAY, someone is not paying attention to see what is up ahead, they are only looking in their rear view mirror. We KNOW not keeping your eye on the road will lead to a MAJOR accident.
@Andrew, If I had witnessed it, I might have, but it was my neighbor. Sometimes you are just so stunned at what you witness, you don’t have time to react.
February 13, 2012 at 4:50 pm
I’m a cop elsewheere and I don’t thinik this community has the spine to add more cops. Remember the rucus last year about adding 4? We’d probably have to add 8-10 guys. Good luck with that.
February 13, 2012 at 5:04 pm
@Nettie
Well spread the world if anyone sees an officer who appears to be sleeping in his is car to try to record the car number (found on the sides or roof of a marked unit), the time the officer was allegedly seen sleeping, and the location this occurred. Then file a complaint ASAP. The MCPD’s internal affairs people should be able to figure which officer was allegedly sleeping and have a nice friendly chat about it.
@Cindy
I’m not a LEO but I was telling my dad the same thing. To have enough officers for all the needs the City wants to place on the MCPD (including an anti-gang unit, foot patrols, etc on top on the regular patrol duties and such), I also feel we ought to add a number of officers. Some last year were indeed upset or otherwise didn’t want to add more officers, including some Council members, but I’d like to think they were the minority. (Remember the minority always seems to yell the loudest…) I would not so quick to say the majority of the City’s citizens “doesn’t have the spine to add more cops.”
February 13, 2012 at 5:32 pm
Andrew,
Thanks for the new information. I agree there are a number of signs that point to gang involvement and or risk of joining one. I would also point out that it does seem the Gang task force, while trying to be politically correct, understands where the issue is here in the City. As explained last year in the Gang summit at the B&G Club, one of their major efforts is having a soccer team. Now, I understand soccer is popular across race and ethnicity groups, but why not a baseball team, basketball team, football team, etc? How about tennis? But, why only soccer? And, while soccer does cross over all of those lines, which group most identifies with it? Looking at the pick up games that spring up around the City also clues us in on why one specific group is being targeted with soccer games.
February 13, 2012 at 6:02 pm
Pancho Villa,
An “absolutely reprehensible” thing to do is to insinuate that Mr. Sutherland has said something that he did not say, but something you seem to want to insert into his response, in some blah, blah attempt to discredit his central point that the leadership of the school system and the city has failed the citizens of Manassas miserably on the issue of illegal aliens.
Again, Pancho Villa, really?
February 13, 2012 at 6:16 pm
Andrew,
“(Remember the minority always seems to yell the loudest…)”
Just what one would expect the minority to say when told to …. by an angry majority. 🙂
More police is not necessarily the answer. And yes I did bring to the City a great deal of experience on the issues of gangs and illegal aliens. I’m still waiting for the call back from Chief Skinner (now ret.), … then again I seem to be waiting for return emails and calls from a number of local politicians.
February 13, 2012 at 6:36 pm
Im not sure but the bank may own the Prescott property now.
February 13, 2012 at 7:12 pm
I’m wrong. The lady below owns it
FEAGANES, DOROTHY M
9300 PRESCOTT AVE
MANASSAS, VA 20110
February 13, 2012 at 10:00 pm
Ay, carumba
When I read Mr. Sutherland’s statement above I honestly thought he had made a mistake. He said that as a result of not adequately checking birth certificates, we now have a school system 50% populated by Hispanics. Is that not what he stated? He did not say illegal aliens, or children of illegal aliens, he said Hispanics. Do you read that differently than I do? Really? Insert – Hispanics- in place of – illegal aliens- in your last statement. Do the two sentences have the same meaning?
If one month ago I had been asked if I would be supporting the board incumbents in May, I would have answered that it was not likely. My answer now is that it is fairly likely that I will do so.
February 13, 2012 at 10:35 pm
Rich, along time ago, in a comment far, far away…
… you requested candidates to weigh in on the gang issue…I’ll add my 2 cents and what I’ve done to date.
Einstein is attributed with noting that “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result leads to insanity”. As I stated last Monday at Baldwin, some of what faces our City can only be addressed by a “whole of government” approach, so we need to stop keeping the walls up between the City Council and MCPS. As a first step, I hosted a small forum of about 14 folks inclusive of City Council; School Board; parents of gifted students, special ed students, students in private schools; school board candidates (more than just me); teachers to address a variety of issues inclusive of how to partner between the City and MCPS. After 4 hours of spirited yet collegial dialog, we came away with a better understanding of the limits of both bodies AND that there are in fact opportunities to collaborate.
Einstein is also attributed with admonishing, “make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler”. So our next step (we reached an accord that just because most municipalities have City Councils and School Boards at odds doesn’t mean WE have to execute that way) is to do a bit of “root cause analysis”. Another area, by the way, in which we were all in agreement.
What exactly are the particular City of Manassas circumstances and dynamics that are fueling the gang activity? Just because an answer worked in one location, does NOT mean it will work here. Just because it sounds like a good idea does not mean it will have the desired end state. Our solution which should be rooted in a collaborative approach must address Manassas specifics, not the simpler generalities. Assuming willingness, MCPS could budget funds for Services and so could the Council, but without an understanding of our specific circumstances and what each system can bring to bear, we risk spending our tax dollars while at cross purposes with one another and not really solving anything. By targeting a collective solution (a nickle from the City Council and a nickle from MCPS budget for a dime’s worth effort) we increase the scale of resources that can be focused and the probability of success.
For example, if one of the factors is our youth not seeing a future for themselves, some ideas worthy of consideration might be partnering with the City to offer tax incentives for local businesses to collaborate with MCPS to create an education construct that simultaneously trains a future workforce and reveals to students a path towards a successful career. Such training can range from teaching students how to be efficient waiters/waitresses and accurate cash register operators, to internships in information technology to become competitive to work at Dominion or SAIC. Perhaps we can incentivize local businesses and GMU to contribute towards busing students to Freedom Aquatic Center and work with the staff trainers to learn how to perform jobs in fitness centers and local gyms?
By collaborating with folks from the City and MCPS, and tapping into their collective expertise (social services, police, educators, local business leaders), we can characterize the forces at work here in Manassas, and propose solutions for implementation on a limited, trail basis, then scale up if successful. This would probably be easier to implement if I really were a SB member, but the cool thing is, even just in the role of resident/parent, I can still help to make this happen…wanna join me for the next step?
February 13, 2012 at 11:04 pm
Pancho Villa,
I’ll be looking for the “Pancho Villa Supports Art Bushnell, …” bumper stickers on Liberty Street.
February 13, 2012 at 11:22 pm
I hesitate to throw my 2 cents in on this one… however, I’m left feeling a little uncomfortable by some of Mr. Sutherlands’ turns of phrase, as well. One that doesn’t sit well is “the Manassas is a 1000 miles from Mexico” its actually a lot farther or something along those lines.
@ Mr. Sutherland, I think you stated quite clearly your beliefs and I agree on many of your proposed actions. For me, the uneasiness comes from the fear of perpetuating what I believe is a racial division in our community that is counterproductive to our shared goals – safe neighborhoods and great schools. My children, the two still in MCPS, are a junior and senior, have been here since 2000 – many of their closest friends are Mexican, Salvadorian or non-Caucasian.
I am glad my children have had the chance to live in a culturally diverse environment, I think it prepares them for the real world. I am grateful that they have seen, firsthand, what poverty looks like. I think it makes them think, and be grateful for what they have. I have made them volunteer at the Free Clinic, so they can experience the plight of the uninsured. I have made sure they understand the struggles of their friends who were not fortunate enough to have been born in our country, I hope they never take for granted the true blessing it is to be born an American citizen.
I don’t believe we are obligated to fix the world – but I do hope that we never lose sight of the principals this country was founded on… I get concerned when children get broken down into statistics and blame gets tossed around – if anyone deserves blame, it is the shortsighted elected officials who could not see our changing demographics as an opportunity to provide all of our kids a bi-lingual education ten years ago.
Kids all bleed the same on the inside – how bout we work together to stop the bloodshed and promote unity and keep our eye on the target – a great education for every child in our school system. Just sayin’
February 14, 2012 at 7:30 am
Wow, that’s awesome. Let’s have gang issues, murders, etc all in the name of diversity! But, I suppose it’s worth pointing out that Jessica has equated all these issues with hispanics, etc. Poor, racial divide all means non white.
Well, I think a better way to learn how to live is to have a bunch of rich folks, no crime, fewer social programs etc, that’s the kind of diversity and life lessions I want for my child. Not a City that is in decline.
February 14, 2012 at 8:47 am
+++ Ms. Reistad: my comment that Manassas is 1,000 miles from Mexico is a literary device to illustrate a point, namely that hundreds of cities closer to Mexico do not have over 50% of their student enrollment being Hispanic. So, why is this happening in Manassas? Actually, the distance is FURTHER, namely about 1,700 miles if you drive.
I share your view of cultural harmony. However, seldom discussed is the reality that ESOL students generally lead a segregated existence, including in the schools. In addition, many illegal aliens (and/or their parents) are understandably self-conscious about their illegal status and therefore deliberately avoid intermingling. So avoiding a path to legality impedes social and intercultural harmony, instead of promoting it.
+++ Senor Pancho Villa: I obviously did not mean to imply that violating the state law regarding original birth certificates was THE cause of the City’s student enrollment becoming over 50% Hispanic. However, it is clearly one of the contributing causes – which is often why the law is being abused and not followed! In addition, if someone is in the US illegally, to violate another law continues down a path of unlawful behavior…
You comment that, “…one sad byproduct [of enforcement of the birth certificate law] would be to drive said children into the arms of gang members.” On the contrary! You overlook the obvious: when people are confined to dwell in the shadows of illegality, they are compelled to seek out other illegals in that society with whom to associate. They are thereby driven to expand their illegal associations – and become vulnerable to being recruited by ethnic gangs.
By the way! It’s interesting that you masquerade your identity, and that to do so you chose the name of Pancho Villa, a brutal killer and bandit whose talent for violence led him to become a guerilla fighter and revolutionary – and whose attack on Columbus, New Mexico in 1916 was the first attack on US soil since the War of 1812. That pseudonym tells us something about you. Please be kind enough to keep us informed as to which incumbent candidates accept your support.
February 14, 2012 at 9:26 am
@ Jessica, HS is NOT the “real world”. The REAL world consists of supporting yourself with no help from Mom, Dad or the Govt.
@Charles S. bashers. We have become so accustomed to people that sugar coat problems and beat around the bush that we can no longer handle the plain simple truth. I find his candid comments refreshing and having had the pleasure of meeting Charles on a couple of occasions I know that his heart is in the right place.
February 14, 2012 at 10:06 am
I agree with FourKids. We all need to be more candid about the issues. Readers need to be careful not to jump to conclusions and request confirmation/clarification if the issue is important to them. Too many citizens are apathetic, misinformed or otherwise. I am relieved that there is finally a forum, input and discussion, however unpleasant it might get, it is certainly better than ignoring the issues!
I agree with Jessica as well, we are all passionate and want the same thing regarding the biggest issue facing us right now……
Better schools and school environment. I hope that everyone will remain focused on that!
February 14, 2012 at 11:49 am
BTW, what is obvious to some of us, is not to most, obviously.